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1. The Atlantic is an extremely bias publication. Their goal is to convince you to think a certain way. Mission Accomplished.
2. What you are saying about black people comes off extremely racist. You are in essence suggesting that we deserve a handicap, even the most successful black people. Is this 'alleged luck' that Obama had only exclusive to the black race? Do other races not face obstacles?
3. I will reiterate the things you bring up do not necessarily apply to the OP's example of blacks in this region. Even when they do, black people are not some stupid group of people who can't control our actions. If you have sex with a girl as a teenager and you get her pregnant, that is a personal choice with good and bad consequences. If you decide to not help raise that child, that is a conscious choice. Again black people are not stupid people. These behavior happens because they are often a reflection of a lack of parent that transcends into other races but not to the same degree.
You keep speaking of black people like we are some different species or something. The same issues that impact blacks impact others but it all depends on personal choices and the choices of parents. Parents have the biggest impact on what direction their kids go into. The problem is too many parents do not see themselves as the issue and do not take responsibility to raise their kids. The most successful kids are ones with two dedicated loving parents. Unfortunately there are many who make poor choices with whom they have children with.
Every media outlet can be accused of being biased however, a good researched piece is a good one whether on NYTimes, Atlantic or National Review. Anyone depending on one source of information to form an opinion like Fox News audience is nothing but a fool. I will leave it at that, but Is the experience of your smart son/daughter (as a successful black man/woman) in an elite private school that is more than enough for him/her to feel depressed about, a biased story then? Is a well educated minority Brown University graduate who wanted to teach to help other minorities but quickly realized the daunting task he faced, a biased story?
"Speaking of black people as if some different speciies?" The Jews who we all talk about as success amidst odd are talked about with their history diriving the discussion. Why should American blacks be different?
As you said, your parents are not leaving you and your siblings anything but you are solidly doing that for your kids and that's really great. I am sure that your dad would have left you something if he were in position circumstantially to do so. So what explains the difference between your lot and your father's? I am sure that it's not because you worked harder/smarter than your dad but a combination of many things - circumstance, timing, luck , you name it. That's my point all along! Just imagine for a second, the Great Recession wiping out your plans for leaving something for your kids because you lost money on investment or lost a great job and can't get another or get another with 60% less, for example? Should that impact of that Great Recession be ignored in overall discussion about you/your kids?
In my twenties, I used to read/follow the likes of Shelby Steele,Larry Elders, Ward Connolly, Dinash DeSouza, National Review, AEI and those Hoover Institution guys but something happened on the way to the bank (lol). Yes! I believe in individual responsibility but I am not naive.
1. The Atlantic is an extremely bias publication. Their goal is to convince you to think a certain way. Mission Accomplished.
2. What you are saying about black people comes off extremely racist. You are in essence suggesting that we deserve a handicap, even the most successful black people. Is this 'alleged luck' that Obama had only exclusive to the black race? Do other races not face obstacles?
3. I will reiterate the things you bring up do not necessarily apply to the OP's example of blacks in this region. Even when they do, black people are not some stupid group of people who can't control our actions. If you have sex with a girl as a teenager and you get her pregnant, that is a personal choice with good and bad consequences. If you decide to not help raise that child, that is a conscious choice. Again black people are not stupid people. These behavior happens because they are often a reflection of a lack of parent that transcends into other races but not to the same degree.
You keep speaking of black people like we are some different species or something. The same issues that impact blacks impact others but it all depends on personal choices and the choices of parents. Parents have the biggest impact on what direction their kids go into. The problem is too many parents do not see themselves as the issue and do not take responsibility to raise their kids. The most successful kids are ones with two dedicated loving parents. Unfortunately there are many who make poor choices with whom they have children with.
While the Atlantic maybe left leaning the article in question is pretty good IMHO. She brings up some good points although according to her logic no one would be left to teach minority children. Since Whites don't understand them and minorities have to make more money to justify the sacrifices of their families.
Every media outlet can be accused of being biased however, a good researched piece is a good one whether on NYTimes, Atlantic or National Review. Anyone depending on one source of information to form an opinion like Fox News audience is nothing but a fool. I will leave it at that, but Is the experience of your smart son/daughter (as a successful black man/woman) in an elite private school that is more than enough for him/her to feel depressed about, a biased story then? Is a well educated minority Brown University graduate who wanted to teach to help other minorities but quickly realized the daunting task he faced, a biased story?
"Speaking of black people as if some different speciies?" The Jews who we all talk about as success amidst odd are talked about with their history diriving the discussion. Why should American blacks be different?
As you said, your parents are not leaving you and your siblings anything but you are solidly doing that for your kids and that's really great. I am sure that your dad would have left you something if he were in position circumstantially to do so. So what explains the difference between your lot and your father's? I am sure that it's not because you worked harder/smarter than your dad but a combination of many things - circumstance, timing, luck , you name it. That's my point all along! Just imagine for a second, the Great Recession wiping out your plans for leaving something for your kids because you lost money on investment or lost a great job and can't get another or get another with 60% less, for example? Should that impact of that Great Recession be ignored in overall discussion about you/your kids?
In my twenties, I used to read/follow the likes of Shelby Steele,Larry Elders, Ward Connolly, Dinash DeSouza, National Review, AEI and those Hoover Institution guys but something happened on the way to the bank (lol). Yes! I believe in individual responsibility but I am not naive.
But Jews are considered to be overall more successful so what again are you trying to say about blacks? Again you sound like you are trying to handicap us.
I didn't need luck to get where I have and neither has my father. Like my father I work hard to take care of my family. Why do I as a black person need luck to succeed? Am I not afforded the same opportunities as people in other races. I grew up in a typical middle class family and was afforded the same opportunity as my classmates of other races. I am sorry if you believe that the only way black people can be successful is by luck and that we are inferior otherwise. My dad and my mom worked hard to put me on good grounds to be successful. I am not where I am because of luck, I am here because I was raised to work hard and do my best. Something 200 years ago has no impact on the choice I made to do good in school and to marry my wife and raise my children in a loving two parent home.
But Jews are considered to be overall more successful so what again are you trying to say about blacks? Again you sound like you are trying to handicap us.
I didn't need luck to get where I have and neither has my father. Like my father I work hard to take care of my family. Why do I as a black person need luck to succeed? Am I not afforded the same opportunities as people in other races. I grew up in a typical middle class family and was afforded the same opportunity as my classmates of other races. I am sorry if you believe that the only way black people can be successful is by luck and that we are inferior otherwise. My dad and my mom worked hard to put me on good grounds to be successful. I am not where I am because of luck, I am here because I was raised to work hard and do my best. Something 200 years ago has no impact on the choice I made to do good in school and to marry my wife and raise my children in a loving two parent home.
I am laughing here because you keep taking a small item from a whole lot of what I said to run with. That's ok if you must but in addition to circumatsnces, timing, help from others (directly and indirectly) there's also LUCK. I know that you know that. And I want to include LIKE to that list as well.
I think that anyone who holds on to this idea that ONLY hardwork guarrantees success is kidding himself while I also agree that WITHOUT hardwork, you will be even worse off. Barely staying above water due to hardwork and being successfully well-off are not the same. There are other things at work as well.
Of course Jews are successful but many Jews are also struggling/poor as there are many suiccessful blacks like you even though many blacks are struggling and many poor. That's not unique to any group including whites.
I must not be "handicapping" blacks if I bring up all the relevant societal areas to the discussion table. Take cocaine and crack senstencing disparity for example. How has that affected black families versus white families who use white -powered cocaine? Look at the incarceartion rates of the two groups for the same coke offences? Why was one one so harsh and the other so lenient and even Obama and Eric Holder are beginning now to address that? We talk about absentee fathers while of those locked up long time are fathers/potential fathers. Once they come back after the long prison term, joblessness begins due to that disparity of unfairness in sentencing. What should we expect from children from such group in terms of stability, support system, mentgoring and any wealth transfer? How wil the these come about if these men/women are locked up due to the harsh sentencing.
Even educated blacks who lost good jobs due to the recession and now that some jobs are gradually coming back and employers rely on their employees to recommend potential employees, how many blacks will be realistically recommended versus whites? That is also part of the overall disparate unemployment rates of blacks and whites and not simply "blacks don't go to school and so not qualified." Of course two parents home is better than one to raise children but what if circumstances change and that ideal is not possible? Should we force people to marry an stay married reardless then?
Yes. Slavery happened 200 years ago but racism - a residue of it - is still on today and affecting REAL real people and while some will be unaffected by it, some will. And that cannot be overlooked. You might even be handicapping blacks more by your overexpectation of them to succeed while pretending that societal and institutional handicaps are benign and unimportant.
You see the black issue from a caring but also frustrating lens wanting blacks to better. I see that in you and no doubt in my mind but there's more to the black issue than just not working harder or dropping out of school and absentee fatherhood and single motherhood.
Which brings me to a second point: Just as Morehouse has taught you to expect more of yourselves, inspire those who look up to you to expect more of themselves. We know that too many young men in our community continue to make bad choices. And I have to say, growing up, I made quite a few myself. Sometimes I wrote off my own failings as just another example of the world trying to keep a black man down. I had a tendency sometimes to make excuses for me not doing the right thing. But one of the things that all of you have learned over the last four years is there’s no longer any room for excuses. (Applause.)
I understand there’s a common fraternity creed here at Morehouse: “Excuses are tools of the incompetent used to build bridges to nowhere and monuments of nothingness.” Well, we’ve got no time for excuses. Not because the bitter legacy of slavery and segregation have vanished entirely; they have not. Not because racism and discrimination no longer exist; we know those are still out there. It’s just that in today’s hyperconnected, hypercompetitive world, with millions of young people from China and India and Brazil — many of whom started with a whole lot less than all of you did — all of them entering the global workforce alongside you, nobody is going to give you anything that you have not earned. (Applause.)
Nobody cares how tough your upbringing was. Nobody cares if you suffered some discrimination. And moreover, you have to remember that whatever you’ve gone through, it pales in comparison to the hardships previous generations endured — and they overcame them. And if they overcame them, you can overcome them, too. (Applause.)
Whether his actions and/or his policies support this line of thinking is one thing, but for him to say this, should have some meaning in this discussion since some of the same people who argue the issues of being black in this nation, also are heavy supporters of our President and his policies.
I think that anyone who holds on to this idea that ONLY hardwork guarrantees success is kidding himself while I also agree that WITHOUT hardwork, you will be even worse off. Barely staying above water due to hardwork and being successfully well-off are not the same. There are other things at work as well.
Isn't this implied, does it really need to be spelled out in literal terms? I'm under the assumption that we're all operating at a certain intellectual level, at least those participating in this discussion. Your willingness to work "hard" is simply a good, fundamental attitude to have, especially if you weren't born into wealth. A sort of prerequisite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQ1
I must not be "handicapping" blacks if I bring up all the relevant societal areas to the discussion table. Take cocaine and crack senstencing disparity for example. How has that affected black families versus white families who use white -powered cocaine? Look at the incarceartion rates of the two groups for the same coke offences? Why was one one so harsh and the other so lenient and even Obama and Eric Holder are beginning now to address that? We talk about absentee fathers while of those locked up long time are fathers/potential fathers. Once they come back after the long prison term, joblessness begins due to that disparity of unfairness in sentencing. What should we expect from children from such group in terms of stability, support system, mentgoring and any wealth transfer? How wil the these come about if these men/women are locked up due to the harsh sentencing.
It's funny how politicians will jump on something like the disparity in drug sentencing (mind you, I believe it IS a valid concern), but completely ignore the rate of homicides Blacks commit against each other. Last I checked, it was around 94%. This is what I mean by low expectations. Instead of addressing why these people are locked up in the first place, we talk about how harsh their sentences are. Me and all the guys I was doing dirt with as a teen ALL had the same opportunities to do the right thing. I had a change of heart, they didn't (the ones I kept track of anyway)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQ1
Even educated blacks who lost good jobs due to the recession and now that some jobs are gradually coming back and employers rely on their employees to recommend potential employees, how many blacks will be realistically recommended versus whites? That is also part of the overall disparate unemployment rates of blacks and whites and not simply "blacks don't go to school and so not qualified." Of course two parents home is better than one to raise children but what if circumstances change and that ideal is not possible? Should we force people to marry an stay married reardless then?
Do you have any numbers or any kind of evidence that "educated blacks" are being turned down for good jobs in favor of Whites due to discrimination and that it's as significant as you claim? I'm not suggesting you are totally wrong, I honestly don't know. I'm interested in whether or not you can substantiate this claim.
Honestly, "educated blacks" shouldn't even be a part of this discussion. They aren't the ones using/selling drugs, having numerous children without fathers (not all single mothers are victims either), killing people for expensive clothes/shoes and glamorizing all the aforementioned in music/videos. They aren't out playing the knockout game (read about this one recently). It's embarrassing, quite frankly.
I met a friend's wife not too long ago, Black, from Suitland MD. I didn't speak too much to her during the outing (friend's birthday) and I think she took offense (didn't ignore her, but didn't engage either). She began asking me questions with the intent to insult me. She knew where I lived, what kind of car I drove, etc. Asked me if I used Tom's toothpaste (healthy, natural type), if I made people take off their shoes when in my house, etc. In so many words, calling me White.
This is the mentality I'm talking about. I experienced the same sort of thing in D.C. public schools. Being articulate and doing school work is frowned upon. If you aren't wearing brand name clothes you get clowned. I do realize kids can be harsh no matter where you are, but what I just described is a hindrance to the development of young Black kids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQ1
Yes. Slavery happened 200 years ago but racism - a residue of it - is still on today and affecting REAL real people and while some will be unaffected by it, some will. And that cannot be overlooked. You might even be handicapping blacks more by your overexpectation of them to succeed while pretending that societal and institutional handicaps are benign and unimportant.
You aren't ever going to be in a world without racism, which is just one form of prejudice, it's part of the Human condition. That's not to say you should roll over and accept discriminatory actions taken against you, by all means fight it the best way you can. My experiences paint an entirely different picture then those who feel we're being held back, though. The people I stopped hanging around as a teen CHOSE to continue their downward spiral.
I don't have an absolute answer, but I feel strongly that we need to let go of the past. It's time to adapt ourselves to what works and what doesn't.
I met a friend's wife not too long ago, Black, from Suitland MD. I didn't speak too much to her during the outing (friend's birthday) and I think she took offense (didn't ignore her, but didn't engage either). She began asking me questions with the intent to insult me. She knew where I lived, what kind of car I drove, etc. Asked me if I used Tom's toothpaste (healthy, natural type), if I made people take off their shoes when in my house, etc. In so many words, calling me White.
This is the mentality I'm talking about. I experienced the same sort of thing in D.C. public schools. Being articulate and doing school work is frowned upon. If you aren't wearing brand name clothes you get clowned. I do realize kids can be harsh no matter where you are, but what I just described is a hindrance to the development of young Black kids.
I find this fascinating for two reasons. First, this woman apparently thought you were snubbing her and acting siditty, so she retorted by taking digs at you. Not because she thought you were trying to be white per se, but because to her, you were full of yourself and all about status and turning up your nose at her.
Second, since you felt the need to state that she is from Suitland, and she felt the need to paint you as some stuck up suburbanite, I assume you both felt insulted to a degree. But I think you both missed some social cues. Had you engaged her, she may not have mentioned the Tom's toothpaste (which is overrated, but I digress). Had she engaged you, she would not have had time to make assumptions and insults.
I'm not saying she was right, because she sounds immature and insecure. But the gap between blacks who have and have not is a canyon. Between the crabs in a barrel and those who think they are better than others because they were successful, we have more than anything a failure to really understand each other. This failure can occur in any race or ethnic group between the haves and have nots, but for blacks, the historical context (especially Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement) cannot be ignored.
I don't know the solution, other than addressing self-concept and self confidence at a very early age.
I understand where you are coming from and I think Bowian doesn't understand what this feels like. Let's put the lack of interaction aside for a moment, there are a lot of assumptions that we as black people make about someone that is different than us and happens more often than black men than black women. Bowian can be an educated black woman, have nice things, heck she could even marry a white man and her 'blackness' would never be called to question, but if me or you talk a certain way or act a certain way than we are labeled because black men aren't 'supposed to' act that way.
How many times have we heard that someone doesn't 'talk' black or 'dress' black? There is a underlying assumption that if you don't do certain things that you must be ashamed of you blackness.
This is one of the reasons why I do not like the idea of raising my kids in an environment where people tend to think the same, socially and politically. People even in their own race make assumptions about one another and develop this expectation that you are supposed to be just like them. It happens even in the predominantly white communities where those who grew up in them are looked at funny for interacting with a black person.
We have developed this internal stereotype of black men. I honestly don't remember the last black woman I heard being called an 'Oreo', but a black man, if you don't fit a certain expectation then something is wrong. Political affiliation aside, I think the perfect example of this was how the black community treated Herman Cain versus Barack Obama. Remember one grew up in a middle class black family in the south and went to an HBCU (ironically the same one that I just quoted our president speaking at), while the other was raised by a white woman, grew up for period of time in another country and went to an Ivy League school. With all this said Cain was labeled as an Uncle Tom and was determined not to understand black people's problems while Obama was considered the new voice for the black community. Well some black people finally began to question Obama after his Morehouse speech and wonder how much he understood the black community because he said things that they thought were 'unusual'. It's just pure ignorance. We as a community have put black men in a box and assume way too much about how one should act. We all grow up in different circumstances with different ideaology but that doesn't make anyone more or less black than someone else.
Bowian, I joke around and we have had our share of disagreements on here, but I respect you. You come off as as an intelligent, educated black woman. With that said, there are some things you will not understand about growing up as a black man in this country. Our community has been conditioned far too often to make assumptions of whata good black man is supposed to be. The problem is there isn't enough good ones for people like this lady to know one when she sees it.
I understand where you are coming from and I think Bowian doesn't understand what this feels like. Let's put the lack of interaction aside for a moment, there are a lot of assumptions that we as black people make about someone that is different than us and happens more often than black men than black women. Bowian can be an educated black woman, have nice things, heck she could even marry a white man and her 'blackness' would never be called to question, but if me or you talk a certain way or act a certain way than we are labeled because black men aren't 'supposed to' act that way.
How many times have we heard that someone doesn't 'talk' black or 'dress' black? There is a underlying assumption that if you don't do certain things that you must be ashamed of you blackness.
This is one of the reasons why I do not like the idea of raising my kids in an environment where people tend to think the same, socially and politically. People even in their own race make assumptions about one another and develop this expectation that you are supposed to be just like them. It happens even in the predominantly white communities where those who grew up in them are looked at funny for interacting with a black person.
We have developed this internal stereotype of black men. I honestly don't remember the last black woman I heard being called an 'Oreo', but a black man, if you don't fit a certain expectation then something is wrong. Political affiliation aside, I think the perfect example of this was how the black community treated Herman Cain versus Barack Obama. Remember one grew up in a middle class black family in the south and went to an HBCU (ironically the same one that I just quoted our president speaking at), while the other was raised by a white woman, grew up for period of time in another country and went to an Ivy League school. With all this said Cain was labeled as an Uncle Tom and was determined not to understand black people's problems while Obama was considered the new voice for the black community. Well some black people finally began to question Obama after his Morehouse speech and wonder how much he understood the black community because he said things that they thought were 'unusual'. It's just pure ignorance. We as a community have put black men in a box and assume way too much about how one should act. We all grow up in different circumstances with different ideaology but that doesn't make anyone more or less black than someone else.
Bowian, I joke around and we have had our share of disagreements on here, but I respect you. You come off as as an intelligent, educated black woman. With that said, there are some things you will not understand about growing up as a black man in this country. Our community has been conditioned far too often to make assumptions of whata good black man is supposed to be. The problem is there isn't enough good ones for people like this lady to know one when she sees it.
I disagree. As a child, I was called a "white girl" a few times. Of course a black woman's blackness is called to question. But all of that involves certain assumptions such as those apparent in IbanezGuitar's story. Is it worse for black men or black women, or is it just a different version of negativity?
See, I thought Herman Cain was poo-pooed because he was a clown and a grab-ass. Didn't I make this comment before in another thread? Anyway, better examples please. I don't hear folks vilifying Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice.
I assume the lady knows a good man when she sees one because she is married, to a friend of IbanezGuitar, whom I assume from previous posts doesn't hang out with no-good black men.
I disagree. As a child, I was called a "white girl" a few times. Of course a black woman's blackness is called to question. But all of that involves certain assumptions such as those apparent in IbanezGuitar's story. Is it worse for black men or black women, or is it just a different version of negativity?
See, I thought Herman Cain was poo-pooed because he was a clown and a grab-ass. Didn't I make this comment before in another thread? Anyway, better examples please. I don't hear folks vilifying Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice.
I assume the lady knows a good man when she sees one because she is married, to a friend of IbanezGuitar, whom I assume from previous posts doesn't hang out with no-good black men.
On a personal, much more intimate non-public level, yes I can agree that it does happen to black women. To the same degree? I doubt it. Do you think a black woman marrying a white man is as frowned upon as a black man marrying a white woman? My wife just told me that she has had it happened to her as well (and contrary to what people on here reading may think, she's black too, imagine that). The difference is how it is perceived with public figures and how our general society views this.
The reason why people like Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are not treated the same as Herman Cain is because they are not as extreme in their views or as demonstrative as Herman Cain. However, they are still frowned upon to an extent. For example, both of them support same sex marriage. The idea of a black person having such extreme views as Herman Cain is frowned upon, but that is his experience. Whether we agree with their views or not, that doesn't make a person more or less black.
By the way, Herman Cain was vilified way before the alleged scandals came out. And how was he a "clown" (you just gave us an example of what I am talking about)?
As far as his friend's wife, my comment was not necessarily in reference to her, as much it's in reference to the way the black community has created this perception. Without knowing anything about her, if she has been taught that black people don't do this, this or this and she doesn't have examples around her to show her otherwise then it's more about the environment that she has grown up in.
We have to get out of this mentality. That is what's wrong with this thread, people are assuming that every black person goes through the same thing. I mean someone like the OP, is a graduate of a TWI, has an IT job, yet he thinks he is oppressed and then at the same time he complains when someone calls PG 'poorest in the region'. This is backwards and contrary way of thinking. How can you talk about a place not being poor but then say that people are being oppressed. If you aren't poor, how are you oppressed? Black people in this country do not live the same. There are some people who legitimately may go through hard difficult circumstances because the color of their skin, but is that the norm? If that was then how did we get to the point of having places like PG County, where there is a concentration of wealthy blacks? This is not the 1960s. You have made it. People have paved the way for you, to live in your McMansions. It's time to let go of this alleged struggle and start focusing on why you have kids in your neighborhood getting Gamma Jordans but has a 1.7 GPA.
Last edited by justtitans; 12-28-2013 at 12:37 PM..
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