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Old 02-15-2013, 12:11 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
At the end of the day, there has to be something appealing about the neighborhood for people to want to live there.

Anacostia has got a Metro stop. It's not the most pedestrian-friendly stop, but it's a stop nonetheless. But what else has it got going for it??
The area right around the metro stop could be retrofitted with little trouble I think. With a mixed use building right there - the rest of the walk to historic anacostia is fine, if not for the crime/perception issues.

Quote:
Proximity to Downtown? It's 8 stops from Metro Center (the heart of DTDC, imo) and about 46 minutes via transit according to Google. NoMa is 4 stops. The Waterfront is about the same. Anacostia's not terribly far, but other neighborhoods clearly have an advantage when it comes to distance from the DT core.
1 stop to cap riverfront (if and when it blossoms more fully) 2 stops to Waterfront. 3 stops to Lenfant (not hip, but a major employment center. 5 stops (no transfer) to gallery place.


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Housing? It's "Meh." It's head and shoulders above the stuff you'd find on Nannie Helen Burroughs, but clearly worse than what you'd find in Trinidad. So the housing stock is not a big selling point for the neighborhood in my book.?
as I said its time will not come till trinidad is pricier.


Quote:
Proximity to other vibrant areas? Bloomingdale doesn't have a Metro stop, but it has beautiful housing, and it's not far from U Street, and U Street is not that far from Adams-Morgan and Adams-Morgan isn't that far from Columbia Heights, etc., etc. Anacostia is close to what exactly? There's the river, I suppose, but it's far from a state of being a true recreational destination. And it's not a reasonable walk from Capitol Hill. ?
Im not going to check the walking distance to barracks row, etc, which is far enough it may be an issue even when the walk is better - I will only note that the 11th street bridge (and the eventual rebuild of the Douglass bridge) should improve the quality of that walk (and of biking). If the recreation/arts bridge ever takes shape that will help.


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Crime? I'm sure it's better, but my guess, without consulting any data, is that it's measurably worse than Shaw.?
Shaw is already pricier than say, Trinidad, IIUC.

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The only pluses, for now, seem to be that it's affordable and it has a Metro stop. But the same could be said about the area around the Minnesota Avenue station. I think the one thing that keeps Anacostia on everyone's radar is the prospect of the Riverfront really blowing up one day. But who knows when that will happen?
In terms of office space, I dont know. In terms of retail and residential, its moving ahead pretty quickly. In terms of a real entertainment district, Im not sure.

I havent really checked out the area near Minn Avenue - I have looked closely around historic Anacostia once - I did not know that Minn Avenue has the equivalent of the best houses in historica Anacostia.

Then there is the unknown of whether St Es will take off, and what impact it will have beyond its boundaries.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
1 stop to cap riverfront (if and when it blossoms more fully) 2 stops to Waterfront. 3 stops to Lenfant (not hip, but a major employment center. 5 stops (no transfer) to gallery place.
That's true, but there are a couple of things.

First, I don't think DC will ever stop being NW centric. I think people tend to think of things as revolving around the Downtown, Gallery Place, Dupont, U Street, Adams-Morgan core. I'm not sure that will ever change, the same way I'm not sure NYC's Manhattan-centrism will ever change despite budding areas of commercial/residential/entertainment vibrancy in the outer boroughs. When I think of something as being "far," I tend to think in terms of distance away from that general area. I'm not saying that everyone thinks this way, but I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

Second, I think it still seems remote even though it may only be a few subway stops away from the places you mentioned. There's something about being able to easily walk from Mount Pleasant to Adams-Morgan or Columbia Heights that makes you feel like you're "in the action." I just can't picture having that feeling in Anacostia, ever, even if they make improvements to the bridges to make them more pedestrian-friendly.

(Even Capitol Hill, when I think about it, seems kinda removed from the action. Sometimes you feel like you have to work hard to get on the other side of the Capitol/Union Station coming from NW. And the pace and overall vibe is so much slower)
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:38 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,573,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That's true, but there are a couple of things.

First, I don't think DC will ever stop being NW centric. I think people tend to think of things as revolving around the Downtown, Gallery Place, Dupont, U Street, Adams-Morgan core. I'm not sure that will ever change, the same way I'm not sure NYC's Manhattan-centrism will ever change despite budding areas of commercial/residential/entertainment vibrancy in the outer boroughs. When I think of something as being "far," I tend to think in terms of distance away from that general area. I'm not saying that everyone thinks this way, but I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

(Even Capitol Hill, when I think about it, seems kinda removed from the action. Sometimes you feel like you have to work hard to get on the other side of the Capitol/Union Station coming from NW. And the pace and overall vibe is so much slower)

Second, I think it still seems remote even though it may only be a few subway stops away from the places you mentioned. There's something about being able to easily walk from Mount Pleasant to Adams-Morgan or Columbia Heights that makes you feel like you're "in the action." I just can't picture having that feeling in Anacostia, ever, even if they make improvements to the bridges to make them more pedestrian-friendly.

1. manhattan centrism has, you know evolved. When I was growing up there were still quite a number of areas south of 96th street that were pretty marginal - LES, most of clinton/hellskitchen and chelsea, and many parts of the upper west side. That was after a couple of decades of "gentrification" on the margins of the upper east side (most of the area from 3rd ave east was slummy before the el came down, and lexington was a middle class buffer between that area and the silk stocking district - you can still get some feel for that from the older buildings) and greenwich village (east village was the hip edge area at the time). I would say it was only a few years later, as UWS became hot, and chelsea and hells kitchen really turned around that the "bridges and tunnels" distinction solidified.

2. Bloomingdale used to be "far". The focus was downtown and west of RCP. that the east of RCP is "hot" is also a new thing. Eckington, technically NE, seems to be undergoing transformation by proximity to Bloomingdale and NoMa

3. If Anacostia transforms like quiet capital hill, I think that will count

4. Im not sure how much of a barrier the river will end up being. Whats the walk across like, compared to say the rosslyn-georgetown walk across the key bridge? At this point its hard to say - until the last few years there was nothing on the north bank worth walking to, and even now Cap riverfront has a way to go - and the access to the bridges on the eotr side is still weak, and the douglass bridge is not redone, and the 11th street bridge is barely redone (and the proximity to the highway part of the 11th street bridge may be a deterrent to walking).

Ultimately more needs to be done with the bridges and with the riverfront on the anacostia side. Maybe water taxis, I dont know.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
1. manhattan centrism has, you know evolved. When I was growing up there were still quite a number of areas south of 96th street that were pretty marginal - LES, most of clinton/hellskitchen and chelsea, and many parts of the upper west side. That was after a couple of decades of "gentrification" on the margins of the upper east side (most of the area from 3rd ave east was slummy before the el came down, and lexington was a middle class buffer between that area and the silk stocking district - you can still get some feel for that from the older buildings) and greenwich village (east village was the hip edge area at the time). I would say it was only a few years later, as UWS became hot, and chelsea and hells kitchen really turned around that the "bridges and tunnels" distinction solidified.
That's true, but I think that people (hipsters included) tend to center their lives around Manhattan. The most desirable parts of Brooklyn are the ones that have easy access to Manhattan (Williamsburg, BK Heights, Ft. Greene, etc.). I think that the DTDC, Dupont, U Street area is DC's analog of Manhattan. But I guess your point is that the "Manhattan" of DC still has potential to grow and that in 20 years time Capitol Hill could very well be considered part of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
2. Bloomingdale used to be "far". The focus was downtown and west of RCP. that the east of RCP is "hot" is also a new thing. Eckington, technically NE, seems to be undergoing transformation by proximity to Bloomingdale and NoMa
This is true. But the big difference I see is that Bloomingdale is easily accessible from Eckington and Shaw is easily accessible from Bloomingdale (via walking). In the distance it would take to walk across the Frederick Douglass Bridge, you could have walked from Bloomingdale to U Street and passed several restaurants along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
3. If Anacostia transforms like quiet capital hill, I think that will count
You mean count as part of DC's "Manhattan?" I don't consider Capitol Hill to be that now. Do you?

I've always thought of CH as being just a tad bit removed. There's little nightlife. Few restaurants compared to NW. Even now, I feel like I rarely see emails inviting me to Happy Hours on CH, but I see plenty for Dupont and U Street. And I've always felt like the Hill crowd (the people working on the Hill, that is) always had their own little scene with their own bars and hangouts on the Hill. This is all just my perception, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
4. Im not sure how much of a barrier the river will end up being. Whats the walk across like, compared to say the rosslyn-georgetown walk across the key bridge?
The Key Bridge is exactly what came to mind for me as well. I'm not sure. I guess it takes someone with more vision than me to make it happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Ultimately more needs to be done with the bridges and with the riverfront on the anacostia side. Maybe water taxis, I dont know.
Do you think all of the neighborhoods beyond Anacostia will be a deterrent to development?
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:25 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,573,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That's true, but I think that people (hipsters included) tend to center their lives around Manhattan. The most desirable parts of Brooklyn are the ones that have easy access to Manhattan (Williamsburg, BK Heights, Ft. Greene, etc.).
I think thats more because of proximity to jobs than to a psychological barrier. I mean UWS is more desirable than morningiside hghts, which is more desirable than wash hghts, etc - right?

I know theres been some attempt to strengthen downtown brooklyn as an employment center - but my vague sense is that downtown brooklyn has much less potential relative to downtown and midtown manhattan, than Cap riverfront and SW/wharf do relative to downtown dc. The height limit will probably play a role.


Quote:
I think that the DTDC, Dupont, U Street area is DC's analog of Manhattan. But I guess your point is that the "Manhattan" of DC still has potential to grow and that in 20 years time Capitol Hill could very well be considered part of that.?
My point was that over time, distance has been more of an issue than the psych barrier of the river, which was really generated by certain relatively temporary factors.

Quote:


You mean count as part of DC's "Manhattan?" I don't consider Capitol Hill to be that now. Do you?

?

No, i meant it would count as transformation/gentrification in the case of anacostia. IE Cap Hill is isolated and quiet, but its certainly gentrified. Anacostia if and when it gentrifies will be more isolated, and probably quieter, than most "hot" NW areas, but it will still be gentrified.



Quote:
The Key Bridge is exactly what came to mind for me as well. I'm not sure. I guess it takes someone with more vision than me to make it happen.?

"Whats the best way to take a bridge?" "From both ends" A Bridge Too Far

I think when Cap Riverfront is HOT (as hot as Gtown? hmmm) and Anacostia has SOME momentum of its own (as much as Rosslyn did a few years back) the walks across the 11th st and Douglass bridges will seem less daunting - though I dont know if the crossing will become quite like the Key Bridge.



Quote:
Do you think all of the neighborhoods beyond Anacostia will be a deterrent to development?

I don't know. Its not my impression that the river is actually a "shelter" against visiting criminals from points east and northeast for places like Trinidad, say. But it may be a psych thing.

Last edited by brooklynborndad; 02-15-2013 at 01:35 PM..
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:35 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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from good hope and MLK to 11th and M is about .7 of a mile walk per Google maps


Problem A. There isnt anything worth walking to at 11th and M

B. You have to walk across 295 on MLK, which is probably less pleasant than walking across the river.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
32,119 posts, read 34,777,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I think thats more because of proximity to job than to a psychological barrier. I mean UWS is more desirable than morningiside hghts, which is more desirable than wash hghts, etc - right?
Yes, jobs is a big part of it. As well as an overall sense that that's where the majority of "stuff to do" is. All of the jobs, the Verizon Center/Gallery Place, the museums, and all of the entertainment serve as a powerful center of gravity.

Manhattan has this effect even on the hipsters who don't have conventional 9-5 (or 10 to 10) jobs in Manhattan. They want to be close to the Village because that's where all of the creative energy is or is supposed to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
I know theres been some attempt to strengthen downtown brooklyn as an employment center - but my vague sense is that downtown brooklyn has much less potential relative to downtown and midtown manhattan, than Cap riverfront and SW/wharf due relative to downtown dc. The height limit will probably play a role.
From what MDAllStar has been saying, I'd have to agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
My point was that over time, distance has been more of an issue than the psych barrier of the river, which was really generated by certain relatively temporary factors.
I think it's both. It's not only that there's a river, but it's also that it's not that close to Downtown. The river just compounds the distance problem.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:42 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,573,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Manhattan has this effect even on the hipsters who don't have conventional 9-5 (or 10 to 10) jobs in Manhattan. They want to be close to the Village because that's where all of the creative energy is or is supposed to be.

different industries have their own axis of movement. From what I can gather the avant garde arts scene (as opposed to the establishment one on 57th street) became established in greenwich village, than moved to soho and the east village, then to other manhattan loft nabes and the LES, then to North Williamsburg and beyond - though now the high line/chelsea area may be more important. And naturally the people not actually involved in the arts sector, but preferring to be near it, would be similarly drawn.

I dont think theres really an equivalent in DC though.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:44 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I think it's both. It's not only that there's a river, but it's also that it's not that close to Downtown. The river just compounds the distance problem.

Petworth. Brookland. Takoma. Fort Totten for crying out loud.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
different industries have their own axis of movement. From what I can gather the avant garde arts scene (as opposed to the establishment one on 57th street) became established in greenwich village, than moved to soho and the east village, then to other manhattan loft nabes and the LES, then to North Williamsburg and beyond - though now the high line/chelsea area may be more important. And naturally the people not actually involved in the arts sector, but preferring to be near it, would be similarly drawn.

I dont think theres really an equivalent in DC though.
I mean in terms of the pull that Manhattan has on people's decisions whether it be for work or play. Very few people try to get situated off the G, which completely misses Manhattan. Most people moving to northern Brooklyn (and certain parts of Queens) choose an apartment based on ease of access to Manhattan. Similarly, many people in DC choose a place to live based on ease of access to Downtown and adjacent areas.
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