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Happy Labor day! I am reporting back on our social experiment from last Saturday where a group of 8 ladies hit a few clubs/bars/lounges in DC (U street and Dupont circle) in an attempt to understand why some men complain that DC women are "uppity" and difficult to engage.
A little background: 8 women, ages 24 - 39; 3 AA, 2 Caucasians, 2 Latinas, 1 Asian. Each girl was told to adopt a persona and stick with it throughout the night (1 "virgin", 1 hardcore party girl, 1 nerd, 1 NYC socialite, 1 bitter ex-girlfriend, 1 "desperate/biological clock-conscious" lady and 1 girl-next-door).
Disclaimer: I do not claim to be a relationship expert, nor do I claim that these results are necessarily representative of typical interactions btw men and women in DC. Additionally, I tried to minimize ranting/verbosity but I am human and cannot guarantee complete success.
Our findings/observation:
1. Loud catcalling will not get you the favorable response you are hoping for. I noticed that African American and Latino men are repeat offenders in this. Shouting, "dayum look at the phat a$$ on her" when anyone with 20/60 vision or better can already see said "phat" posterior, is not scoring you any points. Such attention may be unwanted in the streets, and at the end of the day, we don't want to treated like animals in a zoo. A private compliment is more appreciated. That said, please be subtle. Saying "nice boobs" may be flattering to some but might be too aggressive on a first night.
2. Why do most guys in DC dress the exact same way? While this is a small issue, we universally agreed that men who have their own individual style are more attractive and more likely to be intriguing to us. Along the same lines, what is the obsession with boat shoes? Surely there are other clothiers out there than J. Crew, Urban Outfitters and Ralph Lauren! A minor quibble but worth mentioning.
3. Women, like men, are to some degree superficial. If we take our time to get dressed for a night out on the town, please do us the courtesy of putting a little bit of effort into your appearance. I cannot tell you how many guys were dressed in clothes better suited for camping or walking the dog and were hoping to be successful PUAs. I know this sounds shallow but if she is dressed to the nines, she will likely avoid association with you out of fear of looking bad.
4. Please remember that I want to get to know you, not who you know. Unnecessary name-dropping, throwing around cash or waxing poetic about grandiose but potentially boring topics is not impressive. So you work with X- Congressman and you have brunch with his family twice a month.... Please don't assume that I consider this a great accomplishment. I want to know you; what makes you tick, what makes you smile, what pisses you off, how you became the man you are today. It doesn't have to be fancy, just genuine and uniquely you.
5. Please learn to read body language. If you lean in for a kiss and I lean out, don't try to kiss me again if I haven't explicitly indicated that I want your kiss. In the same vein, please avoid touching me if I haven't touched you first or at least indicated that I want to be touched (all in the eyes, baby). I know this sounds sexist but let's just chalk it up to ladies' choice.
6. Please don't talk about how all you want to do is "score." I had a guy come up to me and say, "I've tasted every color in the rainbow but yours...how do you feel about having an amazing nite?" This was after 2 minutes of meeting him and I didn't even know the first thing about him. If it's a one-night stand you want, there are girls who are obviously available for the picking. Aggressive propositioning has a way of creating anger and irritation which could be taken out on the next guy. Bottom line, be your brother's keeper by understanding that there is a time and place for recruiting women for anonymous sex.
Other things:
-Women like to laugh or at least feel some amusement in your company. I observed a guy who struck out twice (in rapid succession) because of taking himself too seriously. Along with that, please have a diverse repertoire of things to talk about. Quoting scenes from "Napoleon Dynamite" or "Superbad" is well... super bad.
- Please don't equate being allowed to buy a woman a drink with permission to have access to her body. Along with that, if a woman is enjoying her buzzed state, as hard as this may be for you, don't try to ply her with more alcohol to get her drunk. That would make you a predator. Also, do you really want to deal with her vomiting and erratic behavior all night? Remind yourself that you deserve better.
A lot of this is common sense but you would be surprised how many interactions had multiple missteps. This is not a conclusive list but just a snippet of the night.
Enjoy and of course, let me know if you have any questions.
Cheers!
PS: I didn't go into detail about the various anecdotes of each of the participants because I felt it might be too much. The above is largely common themes that each girl experienced.
What I would love to know (and I know we will never get) is a report from the opposite side. Was Nallia and the great 8 a simple innocent and innocuous group at the club or were you all equally engaging, funny, well versed in topics and the life of the party? Are you as awesome as the man that you seek? (Please don't take this as an attack -- but you have great expectations -- do you fit that from the opposite end)? I know it's an question without an answer but I can't help but wonder.
I have gone out with guys that are jerks, but also women that have bored me to tears, have no opinion on anything and love to stand around looking cute but angry. The guys that are jerks, I do my best to avoid -- and if as a male I put them on tbe blacklist I can only GUESS what you have to endore as a female -- but these are not all males.
I am into opinionated argumentative women, that aren't afraid to buck trends. One of my best "filter screens" is to invite a woman to something totally immature (WWE fight, monster truck events, skeet shooting etc.etc.). When they know how to enjoy themselves without my guiding them that's when I know I have a good one -- but I serve as the foundation of this....
Many of your points above made the action dependent on the guy, not the other way around, and that intrigues me.
I will admit that I probably did not bring my 100% A-game because I just did this for fun and I'm not actually looking to get with someone right now. However, I am a good conversationalist and I often tried to keep things moving when it felt "stuck." My girlfriends are also all vivacious women who are generally deemed attractive by most men and women. I think they did a good job but obviously by the end of the night were ready to bounce.
There were some guys who I spoke to that just kept things simple. No frills, no pick-up lines, no flexing of muscles, posturing or trying too hard...just genuine, easy going conversation. And I had the best time talking with them. A couple were in town for a few days and wanted something temporary and were honest enough to admit that (without being obnoxious about it) which I respected.
Sadly, I didn't do a good job at reporting the male perspective of how women interact because... well, I'm not a man. But if I do this next time, I'll ask some of my guy friends to participate. We'll see.
Please don't equate being allowed to buy a woman a drink with permission to have access to her body
Would you allow a gentleman to buy you a drink, if you did not have any sort of attraction towards him?
In addition, did you notice a fair amount of guys hanging with their guy friends the entire night, texting on their phones, or just being aloof instead of actively trying to be social or attempting to meet someone new?
Your experience demonstrates why an overwhelming majority of single women between the ages of 21 and infinity do NOT hit the nightclub/bar scene on weekends. Dudes go out on Saturday night because A.) they wanna get sh*tfaced on cocktails and shots. B.) They wanna meet that hot honey and work his game. C.) They wanna get laid for their sloppy, drunken efforts of courting a woman. D.) They wanna brag to their "Brahs" about the hot-piece-of-azz they tapped the night before. Any sane, self-respecting female would avoid the nightclub circuit in DC or any other large city for that matter.
Try your experiment when there is no alcohol flowing and more skin covered by clothing. Preferably during daylight hours too. Hiking clubs. Volunteer activities. Author presentations at local bookstores. Professional or college sports events. Jogging or cycling clubs. Even a few cheesy Meet Up gatherings based on hobbies or interests. A different kind of Man will likely be available at these activities. They are more likely to see women as human beings for starters. Unlike those chumps you see hanging around in the clubs on a Saturday night.
I think your experiment proves that young men <43 years old do **NOT** understand that
women do *not* have the same 24 hour-turbo-flying sex drive that men do. We do not think like they do.
When men develop and use techniques to control their mate-pursuing-behavior and channel said energy into having conversations with individual women, those men become much more attractive to women.
That said, I do not understand how you find a potential husband in a bar - yuck.
Would you allow a gentleman to buy you a drink, if you did not have any sort of attraction towards him?
In addition, did you notice a fair amount of guys hanging with their guy friends the entire night, texting on their phones, or just being aloof instead of actively trying to be social or attempting to meet someone new?
Usually, I'm nursing a drink when I'm approached by a guy. By the time we're deep into good conversation, he may ask me if I want a refill. If I'm feeling him, I'll get a drink... if I'm not, I'll ask for water. That's incidentally also a cue for my girlfriend(s) to rescue me. I don't think guys should have to pay for my drink if I know right off the bat that the conversation is going nowhere.
Yes, there were a lot of guys on the periphery in groups, periodically making puppy eyes at us. I took that to mean they weren't ready to engage and focused my attention on guys who came up to me. I did, at some point, consider approaching a guy who was on his cellphone (and had made repeated eye contact earlier in the evening) but got distracted (managing my girls-- making sure they stayed on task, c@#k-blocking: they were there for an experiment not to hook up! LOL ).
Your experience demonstrates why an overwhelming majority of single women between the ages of 21 and infinity do NOT hit the nightclub/bar scene on weekends.
Try your experiment when there is no alcohol flowing and more skin covered by clothing. Preferably during daylight hours too. A different kind of Man will likely be available at these activities. They are more likely to see women as human beings for starters. Unlike those chumps you see hanging around in the clubs on a Saturday night.
I agree with your assessment that a lot of guys have that "Bro"/Jock/Frat-boy behavior which can be off putting. However, I also met some really decent guys and had to ask them why they were still single (a question I don't usually ask but it seemed criminal that these guys are still walking around unattached). Of course, they were a minority and were less likely to engage if they saw lots of guys hovering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leighland
I think your experiment proves that young men <43 years old do **NOT** understand that women do *not* have the same 24 hour-turbo-flying sex drive that men do. We do not think like they do.
When men develop and use techniques to control their mate-pursuing-behavior and channel said energy into having conversations with individual women, those men become much more attractive to women.
That said, I do not understand how you find a potential husband in a bar - yuck.
Leigh, you make a good point about how unrealistic it is to find a potential partner in a bar. It actually goes both ways...some of the girls I saw when we were out were downright disgusting (slutty, sloppy and messy)! But that is obviously the other extreme...most girls seemed nice and reasonably approachable.
As for being a good conversationalist, people discount how important it is. I remember talking with a guy for almost 45 mins and really enjoying his company because he had such interesting and diverse views and even though he wasn't very attractive, he had such magnetic appeal and presence. I was actually floored! Bottom line, like you said conversation with a healthy sense of humor is key.
Usually, I'm nursing a drink when I'm approached by a guy. By the time we're deep into good conversation, he may ask me if I want a refill. If I'm feeling him, I'll get a drink... if I'm not, I'll ask for water. That's incidentally also a cue for my girlfriend(s) to rescue me. I don't think guys should have to pay for my drink if I know right off the bat that the conversation is going nowhere.
Yes, there were a lot of guys on the periphery in groups, periodically making puppy eyes at us. I took that to mean they weren't ready to engage and focused my attention on guys who came up to me. I did, at some point, consider approaching a guy who was on his cellphone (and had made repeated eye contact earlier in the evening) but got distracted (managing my girls-- making sure they stayed on task, c@#k-blocking: they were there for an experiment not to hook up! LOL ).
Like I said, it was a good night.
I think you misread those guys on the periphery who you think simply "weren't ready". The guys who are going to walk up to a complete stranger in a place with no foundation of shared experience (like a bar) are, generally, the very people you don't want: the douchebags, the players, the name-droppers, the ones who think Miami provides some sort of pinnacle experience, and the ones who are just looking for an easy notch in their belt.
You're a number to them, a conquest, and you're just playing into outdated machismo stereotypes of the alpha male coming to dominate his weak prey, no matter how you and your friends try to spin that to make it seem like you have power in that dynamic.
You instinctively perceive those quiet guys as weak, of course (thus, your dismissive "puppy eyes" description) and less desirable than the one who proverbially grabs you by the hair and drags you to his cave, but get past that, take some initiative, and you'll probably find those guys just shooting you glances to be far more interesting and genuine in the long term. Better, however, to engage with such guys in a setting like Coldbliss suggested (hiking group, book reading, whatever).
I think your experiment proves that young men <43 years old do **NOT** understand that
women do *not* have the same 24 hour-turbo-flying sex drive that men do. We do not think like they do.
When men develop and use techniques to control their mate-pursuing-behavior and channel said energy into having conversations with individual women, those men become much more attractive to women.
That said, I do not understand how you find a potential husband in a bar - yuck.
But I'm a 70's kid.
The myth that women have less of a sex drive than men has been disproven so many times, I can't believe there are still people trotting out that tired old story.
It came to be in the patriarchal society where women were expected to be delicate and passive flowers. Hang out with women who've come of age more recently than the 70s and you'll see.
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). I know this sounds sexist but let's just chalk it up to ladies' choice. 
