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DS clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. I've worked with people getting paid well over 100K that didn't even have an associates in the cleared IT world. The only time education will begin to play a significant factor is if you're moving into some sort of management role.
In the field, I do in fact know what I am talking about. You may know some people, but that does not count for much. If you look at the data that is out there, when you get into positions such as business analysts, or software engineers, they always require a bachelors degree as a point of entry. These are IC level positions, so it's not just management.
There are sometimes exceptions, but that's exactly the word for it, exceptions, meaning they are usually outliers. I don't think many people understand this concept fully, including you.
I know such and such a person, is not the same thing as data or evidence. Look on indeed, try to find an analyst position that does not require a bachelors.
OP I could afford certain parts of NoVa DC and I'm prior service Army with a 2 year technical degree in mechanics and refrigeration, I currently work for General Motors, I built my resume with military service and mechanical knowledge.
Wife graduated from Central Florida with a degree in management and accounting, she works in Manassas. shes a store manager and board certified Cpht for Walgreens, she makes 75,000 a year on her own, plus what I make as a technician.
DS is all about statistics, the data says this and the data says that, yadda yadda.
Statistics can be and are usually not 100% accurate. Statistics would say to make 6 figures you need an Ivory Tower degree, wife and I easily bring in over 100k annually, neither of us graduated Harvard, statistics dont count for one thing, anamolies., the ones that make it taking a different path.
Distric Sonic is a real statistician but what does he know about drivers?
Quite a bit, I also know about regular expressions, writing user stories, and generating automated tests in selenium so you might want to stand back from this one. It's somebody with a math background who works in the industry...that wait, is not shocking at all. Using things like logic and mathematical concepts in a field that is largely built on logical relationships. Being data driven in a field driven steeped in data... How dare she...(Sic)
People like to use anecdotal data because it's easy, as well as like to look at outliers like they are representations of the whole. It's also lazy and gives people false hope. I have seen people stuck in call centers for year because they just have an associates and a few certificates. Again infrastructure is an exception to this, like I said, this part of the field just requires certificates. But dev, ops, BA, and management, the overwhelming number of positions requires a bachelors degree. All of them require passing a technical interview. While I do know of some self trained programmers in dev without a bachelors, they are a tiny minority, and I have yet to encounter one business analyst who does not have at least a bachelors.
The only exception to this I have seen is people who can code extremely well and get past a technical interview and have built up a reputation through open source, and those who are talented hackers. Even then with talented hackers there is a bit of know how to work your way through the system.
I use the term outliers for a reason, because it really is that rare to find a position that does not require a bachelors outside of infrastructure and call center work.
Thanks for all the reply. I truly appreciate it. If I do end up moving to DC, NJ, or NY, to build my resume, I understand that it's not guaranteed, but I am also doing it for the experience of living there. Big cities offer a lot, and if I can't find a job that I want, then at least I've seen the area and maybe expanded my networking.
I am not planning to get my bachelor degree unless I already have a job that will help me pay for it and offers promotions. But I don't think I can go through the stress and debt of going to a university just to end up not finding a job or end like some of my coworkers who have a bachelor's degree and literally work beside someone who hasn't been to college or has any experience in the field. It is sad that most college graduates can't find jobs. Many jobs nowadays ask for a degree or experience.
It is sad that most college graduates can't find jobs.
Um, not sure where you're getting this from. Most people who graduate from college do in fact end up employed. In fact, their unemployment rate is far lower than that for people without a college degree.
That isn't to say that people always find great jobs immediately upon graduation - it often takes time. But it has been ever thus.
A college degree is pretty much a necessity for entry into today's middle class, regardless of what field you're in. In fact, over the past decade or so a master's degree has started to take on the symbolic value that a college degree used to have. So if you don't even have the bachelor's, then you're going to put yourself at an ever-increasing disadvantage for life.
So if you don't even have the bachelor's, then you're going to put yourself at an ever-increasing disadvantage for life.
This isn't necessarily true. Many employers value experience more than a degree. That's why many job postings ask for a degree or equivalent experience. Degrees are most useful to get your foot in the door. Many college graduates can't find jobs especially if it's a degree that's not in high demand. Even business management degree became so common that it's very hard to find a job in that field. Many degrees are not even worth the effort and that is sad. Back in the day a college degree guaranteed a good job. Now it just guarantees a high debt and stress. I agree that many employers require a Masters, and I believe if someone is willing to put the time, money, and effort to get a Masters then they can easily succeeded.
There are also people who are excellent self-taught programmers or those that go to a programming boot camps and get jobs that pays more than most college graduates. Many entry position programming jobs only requires a high school diploma because some of the best programmers are self-taught. Off course the degree is an advantage, but I don't think it's required to become successful.
This isn't necessarily true. Many employers value experience more than a degree. That's why many job postings ask for a degree or equivalent experience. Degrees are most useful to get your foot in the door. Many college graduates can't find jobs especially if it's a degree that's not in high demand. Even business management degree became so common that it's very hard to find a job in that field. Many degrees are not even worth the effort and that is sad. Back in the day a college degree guaranteed a good job. Now it just guarantees a high debt and stress. I agree that many employers require a Masters, and I believe if someone is willing to put the time, money, and effort to get a Masters then they can easily succeeded.
There are also people who are excellent self-taught programmers or those that go to a programming boot camps and get jobs that pays more than most college graduates. Many entry position programming jobs only requires a high school diploma because some of the best programmers are self-taught. Off course the degree is an advantage, but I don't think it's required to become successful.
You need a bachelors to even get a masters.
Yes well there are self taught programmers, and those who go to boot camps. More often than not though, even if they get their foot in the door they have to clear a technical interview. Again, the most talented may be able to clear it, but most average people who go to boot camps cannot. While nearly every college educated engineer can clear it.
Likewise while some jobs say "or equivilent experience" many jobs these days in the field don't. Those that say "or equivalent experience" are in a very small minority. As much as you think "Experience matters more", many employers sort resumes by credential then experience. They use educational attainment as the initial screen. Do you know what a CS Bachelors in DC is, guaranteed full employment. A masters is your phone ringing off the hook with recruiters constantly. A boot camp will not provide you with that, nor will just being self taught. You really have to prove yourself for either, and in most cases that's difficult.
Also in terms of college education, those without a bachelors do far worse, especially in this area. The unemployment rate for those with a bachelors is below 4% here, those with just an associates in DC it's around 12%. So don't pass this anti-college BS, in DC having a bachelors matters for a great deal. Anybody who says otherwise simply does not know the local labor economy here. Those with a bachelors tend to do far better. So to call it worthless is out of line, not getting one puts one at an extreme disadvantage in DC and this includes the IT field.
Now is a good time to be a software engineer if you have a Bachelors degree. None of my friends have had any trouble finding work. I think that if you're smart about where you choose to go to school (read: think cheap) and what you do after college, you will have no problem paying off the debt.
look at all the cpu jobs that get sent to India. Those jobs have become flooded, everybody went to school for computers. The medical field is still the best bet for return on invesrment, even engineering dont seem as lucrative as it once was.
Some kids will be just as successful as a master plumber, this idea of college as a one size fits all is so narrow minded, not all kids are cut out for it.
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