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Old 11-09-2010, 03:16 PM
 
28,107 posts, read 63,446,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlohaHuey View Post
You can thank thirty-plus years of Prop 13 for California's budget woes. At what point are higher taxes a possibility for anyone? We're become spoiled to tax hikes; nobody has the political will to present the reality of the budget, so it becomes pass the buck...which is unsustainable.

Endlessly cutting a budget that has been chopped to the bone for years isn't going to do much.
I'm thankful each and every day for Prop 13...

Prop 13 is the whipping boy for those unwilling to confront California's real economic problems.

Don't know anyone that has become spoiled to tax hikes or lacks political will.

I grew up in Oakland CA and Oakland's voter approved tax rate is 50% higher than Prop 13 limits...

Prop 13 also doesn't apply to school construction... yet most people mistakenly believe it does.

Some politicians do address CA budget issues... Tom McClintock is one of them...

Sorry, for the tangent in the Washington Thread...

All I can say is Washington does not have to go down the same road as CA
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:02 PM
 
1,489 posts, read 3,589,510 times
Reputation: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
I'm thankful each and every day for Prop 13...

Prop 13 is the whipping boy for those unwilling to confront California's real economic problems.

Don't know anyone that has become spoiled to tax hikes or lacks political will.

I grew up in Oakland CA and Oakland's voter approved tax rate is 50% higher than Prop 13 limits...

Prop 13 also doesn't apply to school construction... yet most people mistakenly believe it does.

Some politicians do address CA budget issues... Tom McClintock is one of them...

Sorry, for the tangent in the Washington Thread...

All I can say is Washington does not have to go down the same road as CA
When was the last time there was an across the board federal income tax hike? I have resided mainly in states with no state income tax, so yes, I have been spoiled the last 20 years (as many taxpayers have) by the lack of tax increases, while enough loopholes have been built into the federal system that allow Warren Buffett to pay his federal tax at the 17% rate.

States that control taxation by initiative are more in the hole because 1) nobody wants to pay taxes, and 2) people want all the services of a well-taxed society. Like most things in America these days, it's a pyramid scheme of sorts and the bill jsut keeps on growing.

I'd be interested to hear what the "real economic problems" are. Seems to me that when you are $30B in the red, you shorted your revenue someplace.
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:43 PM
 
28,107 posts, read 63,446,019 times
Reputation: 23222
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlohaHuey View Post
When was the last time there was an across the board federal income tax hike? I have resided mainly in states with no state income tax, so yes, I have been spoiled the last 20 years (as many taxpayers have) by the lack of tax increases, while enough loopholes have been built into the federal system that allow Warren Buffett to pay his federal tax at the 17% rate.

States that control taxation by initiative are more in the hole because 1) nobody wants to pay taxes, and 2) people want all the services of a well-taxed society. Like most things in America these days, it's a pyramid scheme of sorts and the bill jsut keeps on growing.

I'd be interested to hear what the "real economic problems" are. Seems to me that when you are $30B in the red, you shorted your revenue someplace.
It's really no different than the Real Estate Bubble, except on a monumental scale.

Hundred's of thousands willingly... no insisted on... mortgaging their future on the premise that the "Good Times" will continue or that today's high price will be tomorrow's bargain.

California government is no different... all one has to do is look at all the rosy economic forecast assumptions used in it's budgetary process.

Out of Control spending without regard to revenue is the lions share of the problem... not keeping a prudent rainy day reserve is also part or the problem.

California is not a low tax state... no matter how you look at it.

As to Prop 13... it was the CA legislature that glady deferred to the voters... some to wash there hands of the matter and others really never thought it would pass... just not enough property owner voters to carry it... the surprise is large numbers on non-property owners also endorsed it... and we all know that business doesn't have a vote.

Prop 13 could have easily been averted had CA simply indexed the Home Owner's Exemption for inflation... couldn't have been any simpler.

A $7,500 exemption was real money when a typical home cost $12,000... doesn't really amount to much when median homes were fast approaching $100,000 or more.

I blame the legislature which really is the same as blaming the voters... either way, the buck stops with the electorate.

Those I've spoke with were deathly afraid once implemented, a WA State Income Tax would eventually expand, just like Federal Income Tax did, so as to encompass most wage earners...

I think it is naive to assume any Income Tax, once established will not grow... just to easy, if for nothing else than inflation causing bracket creep.

30 Billion in debt is the consequence of living beyond one's means, enabled by easy credit.

The more accurate assessment, in my opinion, is Initiatives that enjoy wide public support only succeed when the State is governed by a legislature out of touch.

I'm not philosophically opposed to Income Tax... I do think the entire premise that it will only apply to a few "Wealthy" individuals is fallacy.

Last edited by Ultrarunner; 11-11-2010 at 09:51 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:45 PM
 
3,117 posts, read 4,571,476 times
Reputation: 2880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira500 View Post
A few short years ago, this state had something like a 9 billion dollar surplus.

Yes, that was our " rainy day" fund. But as some people around here know, we get a lot of rainy days.
You don't dig through a surplus that large in such a short period of time just because of "rainy days". You have to show severe mismanagement skills to accomplish it.

Too many programs, too many expenses, WAY too many government employees and pension plans. The politicians for too long just had a policy of "oh it's no big deal, let's just raid the surplus fund!" any time one of them got some harebrained idea in their head that would cost all sorts of money. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when your revenues are down (as they have been the last couple of years) you don't ramp up spending. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was in college and occasionally found myself down to my last ten dollars, I didn't go out and spend it all on a plate of spaghetti at Olive Garden - I was at the grocery store buying mac and cheese or peanut butter and jelly. These politicians have been going to The Met and spending a hundred bucks on a steak and then saying "just put the other 90 dollars on my tab".
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:37 PM
 
1,489 posts, read 3,589,510 times
Reputation: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
It's really no different than the Real Estate Bubble, except on a monumental scale.

Hundred's of thousands willingly... no insisted on... mortgaging their future on the premise that the "Good Times" will continue or that today's high price will by tomorrow's bargain.

California government is no different... all one has to do is look at all the rosy economic forecast assumptions used in it's budgetary process.

Out of Control spending without regard to revenue is the lions share of the problem... not keeping a prudent rainy day reserve is also part or the problem.

California is not a low tax state... no matter how you look at it.

As too Prop 13... it was the CA legislature that glady deferred to the voters... some to wash there hands of the matter and others really never thought it would pass... just not enough property owner voters to carry it... the surprise is large numbers on non-property owners also endorsed it... and we all know that business doesn't have a vote.

Prop 13 could have easily been averted had CA simply indexed the Home Owner's Exemption for inflation... couldn't have been any simpler.

A $7,500 exemption was real money when a typical home cost $12,000... doesn't really amount to much when median homes were fast approaching $100,000 or more.

I blame the legislature which really is the same as blaming the voters... either way, the buck stops with the electorate.

Those I've spoke with were deathly afraid once implemented, a WA State Income Tax would eventually expand, just like Federal Income Tax did, so as to encompass most wage earners...

I think it is naive to assume any Income Tax, once established will not grow... just to easy, if for nothing else than inflation causing bracket creep.

30 Billion in debt is the consequence of living beyond one's means, enabled by easy credit.

The more accurate assessment, in my opinion, is Initiatives that enjoy wide public support only succeed when the State is governed by a legislature out of touch.

I'm not philosophically opposed to Income Tax... I do think the entire premise that it will only apply to a few "Wealthy" individuals is fallacy.
I can see where marking the exemption to the index would have been helpful. And I agree whatever solution is implemented, it will be everyone paying. NOt just the wealthy.

I don't see people calling for both solutions (raising taxes and lowering spending) when clearly, some measure of both (spending reduction and revenue increases) need to occur.

It's criminal there are not balanced budget amendments in state and national government.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,011 posts, read 3,540,293 times
Reputation: 2747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
I'm thankful each and every day for Prop 13...

Prop 13 is the whipping boy for those unwilling to confront California's real economic problems.

Don't know anyone that has become spoiled to tax hikes or lacks political will.

I grew up in Oakland CA and Oakland's voter approved tax rate is 50% higher than Prop 13 limits...

Prop 13 also doesn't apply to school construction... yet most people mistakenly believe it does.

Some politicians do address CA budget issues... Tom McClintock is one of them...

Sorry, for the tangent in the Washington Thread...

All I can say is Washington does not have to go down the same road as CA
Not to mention that a lot of areas have Mello-Roos now. They can range from $25 to $300 a month, and defeat the purpose of Prop 13. And you just know that if Prop 13 was ever removed, they'd try to keep the Mello-Roos too.
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