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Those are numbers for murders, I'm asking about attacks.
Why do I have to make things equal? You're the one that brought up the theater shooting and the knives being nowhere near "effective".
I guess I don't understand. Are you saying we shouldn't worry about deaths but focus on all the knife attacks that are happening across the country? I would disagree based on the statistics but deaths are statistically measurable whereas injuries can be anything from stabbing to a cut finger.
Are you saying a person with a knife is just as dangerous as a person with a gun? I would disagree since a knife requires physical interaction while a gun does not. That mass knife attack in China required eight people to kill 30. That doesn't mean it wasn't bad, but a shooter could easily, and has, kill that many without getting anywhere near the victims. You don't see to many kids that played with knives and killed themselves. But you read about children that found their parent's gun and kill themselves or a sibling all the time.
It's possible the owner of the gun used in the Marysville shooting may be charged with negligent homicide. Would gun supporters agree with that?
I love it how naive people will compare homicide rates based on the number of reported legal guns in a country or based on the gun laws alone. THere are so many factors that affect crime rate, include the culture, demographics, wealth distribution, political stability, law enforcement corruption, etc that go well beyond simple-minded stats such as gun restrictions, number of guns in circulation or gun owners, etc.
Can anyone guesss what tHe safest country in Europe is? Switzerland! And, which country in Europe has the highest rate of gun ownership and most relaxed gun laws, including being able to own fully automatic machine guns? Switzerland!
The other countries in Europe with the highest gun ownership, Norway and Sweden also have some of the lowest crime in EUrope.
Now, let us compare the homicide rates of two EUropean countries with some of the strictest gun laws in the country and where people are not allowed easy access to firearms, which are Russia and Poland. Let us compare to the homicide rates of these countries with that of the USA.
Country Russia[56] Poland[72] United States[75]
Homicide rate 11.50 5.628 4.8
Year 2011 2000 2011
So, even with very strict gun control, Russia has 2.5 times the murder rate of the USA and Poland also has a higher national murder rate.
Many people do not realize that a majority of the murders in the USA happen in black/hispanic ethnic slums. THere is a very violent type of culture in certain lower-income black and hispanic communities, especially among African Americans. If anybody doesn't believe me, just do a quick search of which cities in the USA have the highest murder rate and they will unanimously be cities with a very high population of black people. I am not being racist , nor think bad of black people, but I am proving a point that a lot of the murders in this country are happening in black and some hispanic neighborhoods. If we remove these specific neighborhoods from the crime statistics of the USA, I would bet you that America's murder rate would be even lower than most European countries, which are having a sharp increase in violent crime and also immigration of people from impoverished countries.
If anyone is deaf, dumb or blind to what I have written, I will let the numbers speak for themselves:
Compare the crime rates of the following cities: Boise, ID, majority white, Most Lenient Gun Laws in the Country
2012 Murders (per 100,000): 0.5 (1 Murder)
White alone - 178,694 (84.2%)
Hispanic - 15,433 (7.3%)
Asian alone - 7,149 (3.4%)
Two or more races - 5,633 (2.7%)
Black alone - 2,455 (1.2%)
Seattle, WA, majority white and Asian and has very lenient gun laws, relatively speaking (even with I-594):
2012 Murders (per 100,000): 3.7
White alone - 413,696 (65.2%)
Asian alone - 92,364 (14.6%)
Hispanic - 46,413 (7.3%)
Black alone - 45,000 (7.1%)
Newark, NJ, majority African American, has some of strictest gun laws in the US, even the world:
2012 Murders (per 100,000) 34.4
Black alone - 132,936 (47.9%)
Hispanic - 97,692 (35.2%)
White alone - 30,203 (10.9%)
Asian alone - 5,764 (2.1%)
Washington, DC, majority African American, has some of strictest gun laws in the US, even the world:
2012 Murders (per 100,000) 13.9
Black alone - 308,286 (48.8%)
White alone - 222,975 (35.3%)
Hispanic - 62,725 (9.9%)
Asian alone - 21,717 (3.4%)
Birmingham, AL, Majority African American
2012 Murders (per 100,000) 31.4
Black alone - 155,258 (73.2%)
White alone - 44,819 (21.1%)
Hispanic - 7,704 (3.6%)
Asian alone - 2,132 (1.0%)
Lambath Borough of London (London's Population has over 8,000,000):
2012 Murders (per 100,000): 3.5
Cannot find the stats on any Swiss city, but here is the total number of firearm related homicides in Switzerland for 2010: 0.52
Last edited by RotseCherut; 11-06-2014 at 07:21 PM..
Dead end argument comparing guns to knives. We better ban McDonalds, and all fast food, junk food then. Statistically they kill vastly more people. Obesity is an epidemic... Shouldn't we focus on that killer?
Why not attempt to look at how many lives are saved by guns, and how much less.crime is committed in conceald carry states. Fact is cities with gun bans have some of the highest gun crime rates!
How can that be?/ Criminals do not follow laws, only responsible citizens do.
I refuse to be a.sheep and be violated. I will ventilate anyone who physically threatens the lives of those I love. I am cocked and locked. Go ahead scumbags, break into my house.
Its that sense of security from a last line of defense, a right and a duty to protect my family in my own home, is what is at stake here.
Come back to me when you enforce the laws already on the books, then maybe I will be able to listen to the anti gun argument.
And there are laws against drunk driving, breath tests, laws after a person is found with DUI, lost drivers licenses, age restrictions on drinking, laws against where liquor can be sold or consumed, etc. Lots and lots of alcohol laws.
I don't hear anyone saying, "the alcoholics will always get alcohol, so let's eliminate the restrictions" or "alcohol is an inanimate object, it's the drunks who are dangerous, so let's abolish liquor laws".
What restrictions? Virtually anyone who's over 21 can buy alcohol no questions asked.
You're talking about restrictions on the use of alcohol, namely the use in public. Kinda like how there's restrictions on the use of guns in public.
The last #s I saw from the CDC listed 10,322 killed by DUIs alone (Impaired Driving: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center). I'm not aware of any defensive uses of alcohol, for that matter I'm not aware of any redeeming value of alcohol. I won't even get started on drunken rapes, drunken assaults, and dumb/dangerous/harmful things in general done under the influence.
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Why not attempt to look at how many lives are saved by guns
It has been. One of the lowest numbers of defensive gun uses out there, and the one that Josh Sugermann of the VPC ran with in his book Every Handgun is Aimed at You, comes from the National Crime Victimization Survey. They found 108,000 per year (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf, page 8). I found Every Handgun is Aimed at You to be rather well written by the way, I'd recommend it from the Amazon used book stores.
Last edited by happygeek; 11-06-2014 at 09:41 PM..
I guess I don't understand. Are you saying we shouldn't worry about deaths but focus on all the knife attacks that are happening across the country? I would disagree based on the statistics but deaths are statistically measurable whereas injuries can be anything from stabbing to a cut finger.
Are you saying a person with a knife is just as dangerous as a person with a gun? I would disagree since a knife requires physical interaction while a gun does not. That mass knife attack in China required eight people to kill 30. That doesn't mean it wasn't bad, but a shooter could easily, and has, kill that many without getting anywhere near the victims. You don't see to many kids that played with knives and killed themselves. But you read about children that found their parent's gun and kill themselves or a sibling all the time.
It's possible the owner of the gun used in the Marysville shooting may be charged with negligent homicide. Would gun supporters agree with that?
No, I'm not saying that at all. If someone is in a kill/attack mode, the problem would be the mode, not the choice of weaponry.
A theater shooting is a rare, very sensationalized event. There's always an overflow of hysteria after these events where there's a push *only* on the anti-gun sentiment and shoddy gun control measures. As if that's going to make any difference in the future. If anything, it only serves to hurt the law abiding citizens more.
No, I'm asking a direct question that no gun advocate wants to answer. Including you. What is too much? Because you get ten gun advocates in a room and they rarely are going to agree. I thought limits on magazines would seem reasonable after Colorado and guys said out of the question.
I think it's entirely reasonable to ask where the line should be drawn. And I think it's ridiculous every single time someone posts a picture of Hitler but that doesn't stop you guys from posting them so there you go.
Someone answered your question earlier: that the limits we have on the types of weapons right now - no major artillery and explosives, and no automatic weapons - are fine. In general, I don't think civilians need access to weapons that they can't control/fire safely. I know that sounds ridiculous to people who don't have experience with guns, but those who own guns know that there are some firearms we can control and shoot responsibly, and others that aren't as precise (machine guns for instance).
The reason why "high capacity magazines" - whose definition has evolved to mean anything more than 8-10 rounds for some reason - upsets most gun owners is because it makes almost all semi-automatic pistols (which are the huge majority of pistols sold) obsolete. Revolvers typically have 5-6 round barrels, or more in the case of "smaller" guns. But semi-automatic pistols are commonly built to hold 8, 10, 12 or more rounds. Gun owners see it as an indirect way to ban guns, because they wouldn't be able to buy most of the guns on the market today. Also, anyone who practices at all with a gun can eject and re-load magazines in 3 seconds or so - so the number of rounds held in a magazine is a pretty moot point for anyone with a massacre on his mind.
Guns have been ingrained in the American culture for a long time, certainly before the 90s, when school shootings and mass shootings became "all the rage." I do think gun owners have a responsibility to lock up their guns so kids, thieves and others can't get them, but I also think we need to figure out as a society why we have so many kids and adults who don't have the coping skills to handle emotional problems. Why do people think it's OK to kill strangers in a movie theatre? Or shoot kids at a school - only some of which bullied them or called them names? Or kill their friends and family members they went to prom with because one of them dumped him? And why don't we get back to demanding certain standards for behavior and care of others?
Everything we encourage now is about competition, winning, and looking good (and sexy). A lot of the problems we're seeing or hearing about from these "broken" people began while they were in their teen years, when kids are hormonal, emotional, insecure and very shallow. They shouldn't have access to guns in the home (except maybe a shotgun for self defense), but we should be safeguarding them in other ways, too. There is a reason why it used to be that kids couldn't date until they were 16 or so; in the Marysville case those kids were 14 and the shooter was upset about a break-up - jeeeeez how old were they when they started "dating"? And looking at their Twitter profiles, I'm going to assume they were all having sex. That is WAY too young for kids to be messing around, and we only have ourselves to blame that our little kids are now dealing with things they can't possibly be mature enough to deal with. I know that's a tangent from what is being discussed on this thread, but I'll never stop talking about it because I feel like as long as we talk about gun control as the solution , things will never get better.
ETA: Only a tiny fraction of gun owners are members of the NRA. I think I recall it was something like 5%. I can't stand them, and I'll never join that organization. So please understand that the NRA does not represent all gun owners - in fact, they represent hardly any of us!
Last edited by BellevueNative; 11-06-2014 at 10:07 PM..
After Sandy Hook, I was sure that NRA guy would come out and say, you know, this NRA loving mother should have known better than to try to use guns as a method of bonding with her disturbed son. Instead, he came out saying it's time to arm all the teachers.
To be honest, as much as I dislike some of the fringe NRA whackos, in the entire recent debate they are the ones that actually showed some levelheadedness contrary to many hysterical rants of the antis coupled with shameful manipulation of people tragedies for photo-op political reasons.
The NRA said clearly that either we put armed guards/cops in every school or we give the school personnel the possibility or have a conceal firearm...they never said "Let's arm all the teachers".
Ask yourself why these tragedies seems to happen is so called "gun-free" zones.I t's interesting that the Clackamas mall shooter that was confronted by a legally armed citizen got minimum media coverage.
I think the fact that the mother was irresponsible in dealing with her son (in many ways, not only related to guns) was very obvious.
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And there are laws against drunk driving, breath tests, laws after a person is found with DUI, lost drivers licenses, age restrictions on drinking, laws against where liquor can be sold or consumed, etc. Lots and lots of alcohol laws.
So do you think guns are unregulated?? That there are no gun laws in place?? What do you think it happens if the police happen to cross path with a teenager trotting around an AR-15?? They let him go his way???
It's unbelievable how some people still think (especially in Europe) that I can go at the local Walmart and buy a pistol as easily as I buy a gallon of milk.
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But the 9th grade boy, angry over losing a girl, would more than likely have cooled off if he hadn't had easy access to a gun during the height of his rage.
...or he could have built a bomb out of firecrackers, stole his parents car and run into people, etc...
Since we are playing the hypothetical scenario game.....how many lives could have been saved in the Sandy Hook tragedy if some of the school personnel was armed??
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rather than just the Cabelas-loving guy wanting to hunt to feed his family.
The gun rights issue has never been and will never be about "Sportsmen ability to hunt" as much as Hillary Clinton would like to........it is a constitutional issue, stop that nonsense right there.
Guns or no guns, some society are more violent than others...period.....Switzerland has probably the second highest gun ownership percentage among the civilian population behind the US....very peaceful society.
Italy, where I originally come from, has some of the strictest gun laws.....still occasionally you have the crazy random shooting happening like in the US and up to the early 1990s, my own hometown could rival Medellin in Colombia for the highest number of murders per year....dueling Mafia factions were happily blasting each others with fully automatic AKs and even bazookas in some events.
Of course I do not think I need to mention Mexico do I?? Venezuela?? Brazil?? In Latin America, Argentina has much more gun friendly legislation than Mexico or Venezuela...look at the gun crimes stats...
Now there is a new trend among some violent teenager....the "knockout game" where a bunch of kids randomly select a car at a traffic light and beat the crap out of the occupants....3 cases already in short order in my hometown in Italy with 2 people dead....
If you think that banning guns will suddenly results in the drug financed gangs of LA, Chicago, etc...not having triggers to squeeze, frankly I think you are delusional.
When antigunners show the alarming gun death stats in the US they conveniently forget that the vast majority of them are gang related murders that will not abate one iota if more restrictions are applied...zero effects or minimal at best...the powerful gangs will always find a way the get their guns, (well they already do in places with the strictest gun laws in the country) they have the money and the means to get them.
Look, I'm for responsible gun regulations...I'm for background checks and I may even favor a compulsory security container in the house for gun owners (a safe)..still on the fence about that last one.
I believe that every person carrying a gun in public should have a concealed pistol permit as driving a car on public roads require getting a driver license....and I believe that getting a concealed pistol permit is too easy in WA state, I like for people to be able to demonstrate that they can actually hit a target.
Some of the staunchest gun supporters are opposed to concealed permits because gun ownership is a constitutional right where driving around with a car is not....well, without digressing too much, personally I believe that getting around your own country (by feet, car, train, airplane) is some sort of unwritten right in itself and, frankly, we need to reach a middle ground.....someone's freedom and rights stop where my freedom and rights begin so I do not want an armed citizen in public incapable to hit the wide side of a barn at 5 yards...I do not want to lose my life in his/her attempts to save his/her.
So I would like to see an Concealed Permit (where is required to pass a proficiency test) reciprocated in all 50 states of the union like any state issued driving license, background checks for every kind of sale and reasonable gun free zones limited to courthouses, police stations, some federal buildings and maybe airports.
Current firearms classification limits are perfectly fine (no fully automatic, .50 cal. maximum practical limit) ....and that's it, after that get of my back and leave my guns alone. focus on something else that requires way more urgent attention.
Last edited by saturno_v; 11-07-2014 at 03:47 PM..
It's unbelievable how some people still think (especially in Europe) that I can go at the local Walmart and buy a pistol as easily as I buy a gallon of milk.
That's because most people watch and/or read the news but never really read up on the gun laws. I've noticed this has caused many to end up with the impression that D.C.'s homicide rate is happening in a place with Vermont's laws.
That's because most people watch and/or read the news but never really read up on the gun laws. I've noticed this has caused many to end up with the impression that D.C.'s homicide rate is happening in a place with Vermont's laws.
That is another factoid the antis conveniently ignore completely, like it does not exists.....lot of places with the highest gun ownership rate have actually the lowest crime rate......
Considering that the gang related murders have absolutely nothing to do with gun control (they will get the guns regardless) is so easy to connect the dots....gun control bears no relationship to gun related deaths.....but logic is in very short supply nowadays....
In my personal experience so far I never met an hysterical and emotional gun supporter, people with more extreme views than myself yes, but usually relaxed people and at least knowledgeable and informed about the issues at hand.....on the other side I met several hysterically and opinionated antigunners that did not know squat about guns to begin with and capable only to regurgitate statistical data without putting any thought into it.
Obviously I'm not denying that pro-guns a-la Ted Nigent whacko exists, but I did meet quite few cuckoos on the other side as well.
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