Initiative I-976 - $30 car tabs (Seattle, Spokane: property tax, living, lawsuit)

[CrazyDonkey]

Originally Posted by jakebarnes

That could theoretically be true in areas where ST has coverage, but there's lots of places there isn't any ST service. If I'm driving from Duvall to Snoqualmie, ST does not directly benefit drivers, and this is true for most of exurban King, Snohomish and Pierce counties.

I am a transit enthusiast and I disagree with your assertion on another point. Transit does not improve traffic nor reduce congestion. It provides an alternative to congestion (in the case of grade separated rail). Anyone who tells you that SOV traffic will be better because of transit is not being truthful

Look up "induced demand".

You don't move to Duvall without knowing the commute stinks. Metro Transit does serve Duvall: #224 (Redmond) and #232 (Redmond/Bellevue). Duvall, by the way, is outside the ST District. You're not paying ST taxes. Why would you expect it to serve you?

So, how do you think those transit riders would get to work, go shopping, etc., if there were no transit? Just stay home? No, they'd be buying beaters. You don't notice that drivers have been removed from the road, because population growth is putting even more drivers on the road.

[rkcarguy]

Looks like it's passing ~55% in favor.

[fassopony]

Nah nah nah nah! NAH NAH NAH NAH, Hey heyy hey, GOODBYE!


Looks like Kshama Swant is getting sent packing too- wonderful news!

[jakebarnes]

Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey

You don't move to Duvall without knowing the commute stinks. Metro Transit does serve Duvall: #224 (Redmond) and #232 (Redmond/Bellevue). Duvall, by the way, is outside the ST District. You're not paying ST taxes. Why would you expect it to serve you?

So, how do you think those transit riders would get to work, go shopping, etc., if there were no transit? Just stay home? No, they'd be buying beaters. You don't notice that drivers have been removed from the road, because population growth is putting even more drivers on the road.

You are right - Duvall isn't in the district, I stand corrected.

I'm not arguing there shouldn't be transit, I don't know who that is directed to. I said that transit doesn't relieve car congestion, because it doesn't. I ride transit everyday, I know it's important. As far as your assertion, again, look up induced demand. It's a real urban planning concept studied by professionals. Any cars that get taken off the street by transit will be replace by latent demand. Transit creates an alternative to driving and traffic (when it is grade separated). It doesn't make congestion better.

[saturno_v]

What are the chances of this being overturned by the WA Supreme Court?? It is not over yet considering the precedent...

[CrazyDonkey]

Originally Posted by saturno_v

What are the chances of this being overturned by the WA Supreme Court?? It is not over yet considering the precedent...

It is a virtual certainty. You can't use a statewide initiative to de-authorize locally approved and collected taxes. Voters in Spokane shouldn't be able to vote on Sound Transit. Want to repeal ST3? Run an initiative in the ST District. Eyman, per usual with his initiatives, has larded in several subjects in order to gin up the "for" vote. He doesn't care, but is laughing all the way to the bank.

[CrazyDonkey]

Originally Posted by jakebarnes

You are right - Duvall isn't in the district, I stand corrected.

I'm not arguing there shouldn't be transit, I don't know who that is directed to. I said that transit doesn't relieve car congestion, because it doesn't. I ride transit everyday, I know it's important. As far as your assertion, again, look up induced demand. It's a real urban planning concept studied by professionals. Any cars that get taken off the street by transit will be replace by latent demand. Transit creates an alternative to driving and traffic (when it is grade separated). It doesn't make congestion better.

I know about induced demand. It argues against adding more highways, not against adding more transit. We aren't adding more highways; we are adding more transit.

Congestion reduction is a red herring; the real function of transit is mobility. That doesn't mean, however, that 200+ million annual transit boardings don't take SOV drivers off of the road, just not on a one-to-one basis. If there was no transit, many, if not most, of those riders would have to become drivers.

Most of the worsening congestion on roads and highways within the Seattle metro, however, is due to population growth, not induced demand.

[rkcarguy]

Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey

It is a virtual certainty. You can't use a statewide initiative to de-authorize locally approved and collected taxes. Voters in Spokane shouldn't be able to vote on Sound Transit. Want to repeal ST3? Run an initiative in the ST District. Eyman, per usual with his initiatives, has larded in several subjects in order to gin up the "for" vote. He doesn't care, but is laughing all the way to the bank.

Quote from the ballot itself:

"Initiative 976 would set annual license fees for vehicles weighing under 10,000 pounds at $30 except voter-approved charges"

What am I missing here? I-976 doesn't de-authorize locally approved charges. Reading through your posts within this thread, either I-976 has no impact on ST funding, or the WHOLE STATE's taxpayer base is paying for portions of, and/or bond costs for ST in addition to the locally approved ST taxes which is complete BS.
Tim Eyman hasn't had my support in all of his measures, but I'm not alone (obviously) in seeing that he is generally putting the state through "checks and balances" instead of letting the gov't robber barons tax and tax and tax wildly.

[rkcarguy]

Evidentially drivers OUTSIDE of the greater Seattle area have been on the hook for the bill for a slew of transportation monies for King County. And they chide Tim Eyman for the mess and wonder why it passed?

From a KOMO article:

"The Washington Office of Financial Management estimates that the state would lose about $1.9 billion in the next six years if I-976 passes, the release said.
King County said if the state Legislature decides to make reductions because of I-976 passing, it could result in more than $100 million in cuts to King County Metro services between 2020 and 2025.
The potential cuts include the following:
$22.8 million in cuts to the Regional Mobility Grant Program awards for nine Metro projects, including RapidRide expansion, speed and reliability projects, access to transit, transit integration, and reduction in service on the Route 101 in Renton.
Burien, Kent, Tukwila, and Seattle would see cuts of $29.2 million in grants for RapidRide investments, access to transit, and speed and reliability improvements.
$12.2 million in cuts to the Access paratransit program.
Other cuts to programs that provide bus passes to high school students, and incentives to small businesses and non-profits to provide ORCA Passes to employees would also be included.
The county says that the car tab initiative would cut $36 million in funding for the city of Seattle Transportation Benefit District, resulting in the loss of 175,000 Metro bus service hours on 74 routes in Seattle, Burien, Shoreline, Skyway, Tukwila and White Center.
“The passage of I-976 underscores the ongoing need for comprehensive state tax reform, but in the short term we must clean up another mess that Tim Eyman has created for our state, our region, and our economy. There will be many discussions in the weeks and months ahead to determine how to overcome the loss of safety and mobility caused by this irresponsible initiative, but the impact of I-976 to transportation is – in a word – devastating,” said Executive Constantine in the news release. "

[rkcarguy]

Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey

Most of the worsening congestion on roads and highways within the Seattle metro, however, is due to population growth, not induced demand.

This is what I've been saying for years. Out of state implants are moving here in droves and increasing demands on everything from our roads to sewage treatment plants. Yet these newcomers aren't paying for their fair share of the growing pains they have created, instead saddling ALL OF US with the extra expense of accommodating those that move here.