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It's not. I was having a discussion about another poster saying gun makers need to be liable. Read the entire conversation. You're completely misrepresenting what I said.
I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how that ties in to the current bill or any bill advocating gun control. Your premise is 'guns don't kill people, people kill people.' That old notion is not surprising at all since its been an NRA mantra since before the dawn of time. It's basically saying gun have nothing to do with killing, therefore they are perfectly safe and should not be restricted by laws in any way. If that were actually true and people believed it, kids should be able buy them at the grocery store and take them school. Guns should be allowed in the White House, on airplanes, nuclear storage facilities or anywhere by anyone who darn well pleases. Let prisoners take them into prison and maybe they'll just wipe each other out. No more tax payer dollars for keeping 'em locked up, right? I mean anyone can buy them on the street anyway including criminals. So, why have laws at all?
If guns are really safe without the need for laws restricting them, we can also get rid of the ATF or make it just AT. In fact, we can remove all gun laws from the books. Why? Because restrictions are stupid along anyone thinking they're of any real value. The reason: guns don't kill people, people kill people. Why yes, of course. See how simple life would be if we all just followed that NRA mantra for life in America.
Your question about 'why not make them better, more modern' is a straw man which no one argued against in the first place. Of course they should make them better. Who said they shouldn't? Did anyone in the thread say that? No, I don't think so.
This entire thread is only about the current bill before the state, not all these other tangents about guns being the innocent, harmless, victims that they are. I know, if we're going to restrict guns, we should restrict kitchen knives, toothbrushes and toenail clippers. I think the majority of NRA members truly believe these silly notions and such slogans especially when talking amongst themselves. I doubt anyone else thinks their either clever or relevant. But they make for great one liners at rallies and memes on social media.
I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how that ties in to the current bill or any bill advocating gun control. Your premise is 'guns don't kill people, people kill people.' That old notion is not surprising at all since its been an NRA mantra since before the dawn of time. It's basically saying gun have nothing to do with killing, therefore they are perfectly safe and should not be restricted by laws in any way. If that were actually true and people believed it, kids should be able buy them at the grocery store and take them school. Guns should be allowed in the White House, on airplanes, nuclear storage facilities or anywhere by anyone who darn well pleases. Let prisoners take them into prison and maybe they'll just wipe each other out. No more tax payer dollars for keeping 'em locked up, right? I mean anyone can buy them on the street anyway including criminals. So, why have laws at all?
If guns are really safe without the need for laws restricting them, we can also get rid of the ATF or make it just AT. In fact, we can remove all gun laws from the books. Why? Because restrictions are stupid along anyone thinking they're of any real value. The reason: guns don't kill people, people kill people. Why yes, of course. See how simple life would be if we all just followed that NRA mantra for life in America.
Your question about 'why not make them better, more modern' is a straw man which no one argued against in the first place. Of course they should make them better. Who said they shouldn't? Did anyone in the thread say that? No, I don't think so.
This entire thread is only about the current bill before the state, not all these other tangents about guns being the innocent, harmless, victims that they are. I know, if we're going to restrict guns, we should restrict kitchen knives, toothbrushes and toenail clippers. I think the majority of NRA members truly believe these silly notions and such slogans especially when talking amongst themselves. I doubt anyone else thinks their either clever or relevant. But they make for great one liners at rallies and memes on social media.
Derek
Heh.... Derek.... the bolded, this whole post... right back atcha. The whole post is about things no one here argued against in the first place. You're picking on someone who was answering a side issue someone else brought up.
No one is arguing for NO laws.... but I do think it's fair to ask for some kind of proof or promise about how this will reduce gun crime or suffering before it gets enacted. What do you think this will accomplish? In this real world, what will it accomplish? "It sounds like a good idea" isn't enough to restrict a formerly legal right, IMHO.
Heh.... Derek.... the bolded, this whole post... right back atcha. The whole post is about things no one here argued against in the first place. You're picking on someone who was answering a side issue someone else brought up.
No one is arguing for NO laws.... but I do think it's fair to ask for some kind of proof or promise about how this will reduce gun crime or suffering before it gets enacted. What do you think this will accomplish? In this real world, what will it accomplish? "It sounds like a good idea" isn't enough to restrict a formerly legal right, IMHO.
Diana, I understand what you're saying. However, the poster did mention the notion I addressed along with others who touted those same reasons to not vote for gun restrictions. This isn't only a response to his posts but the others in the thread using the reasons always used against gun control for the last 30+ years. They come right out of the NRA political playbook including (but not limited to):
1. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
2. Gun laws are stupid since criminals can easily buy them off the streets. So, you leave law abiding citizens without them when criminals can do what ever they want.
3. People can be killed with anything from kitchen knives to toothbrushes. So, you gotta restrict those too if you're gonna restrict guns too.
4. These laws are easily circumvented. So, why have them at all?
No one said to vote for a bill because it 'sounds like a good idea.' I certainly didn't. Instead, I actually read the bill including what it does and does not cover and encouraged others to do the same. Though I don't think there's much interest in that when the outcome will be the same regardless and decision premade. All the reasons I've heard against it have to do with the same old fundamental worldview on gun laws and gun control = all dumb and a wasted of time. Fill in the typical NRA responses to every gun restriction restriction ever introduced.
The only reason I can think of to even bring it up on CD is to promote that political agenda and say how dumb these laws are basically. It doesn't matter how many more mass shootings occur when you believe all these laws are all a waste of time. Guns play no role in and of themselves and therefore limiting them does no good, right?
The only reason I can think of to even bring it up on CD is to promote that political agenda and say how dumb these laws are basically.
To discuss it again. Because it keeps coming up. The playbook of arguments has been used before, but they're still true. And they still need to be said, this time, and the next time.
Quote:
It doesn't matter how many more mass shootings occur when you believe all these laws are all a waste of time. Guns play no role in and of themselves and therefore limiting them does no good, right?
I have a completely different perspective on mass shootings than you do. I don't see it as too many guns, I see it as too few. At least one too few. Every mass shooter who gets off more than a shot is a failure to me. Not of gun control, because mass shooters won't obey laws no matter how many you write. You can't deter someone who does not plan to survive the day. And most shooters don't plan to survive it. For me, mass shootings are a failure of a citizenry to have the means and the tools to defend themselves when they needed to. The over-riding emotion I feel whenever there is a public shooting is fear and anger that no one could stop it sooner.
It is only ever going to be armed citizens who stop mass shootings. It will NOT be gun control laws. Laws can't stop them... Any more than you can outlaw human evil. They will only ever be stopped by a citizenry who believes and is ready and prepared for their own self-defense. And a shooter who is afraid of running into one of us. Not many of these shootings take place in places where there are a lot of armed people. In fact, they most often happen where they are almost guaranteed a gun-free zone.
Sometimes it works the way it should and someone gets the guy. I celebrate those people and can only pray to do as well if I'm ever tested.
Last edited by Diana Holbrook; 02-19-2022 at 06:17 PM..
To discuss it again. Because it keeps coming up. The playbook of arguments has been used before, but they're still true. And they still need to be said, this time, and the next time.
I have a completely different perspective on mass shootings than you do. I don't see it as too many guns, I see it as too few. At least one too few. Every mass shooter who gets off more than a shot is a failure to me. Not of gun control, because mass shooters won't obey laws no matter how many you write. You can't deter someone who does not plan to survive the day. And most shooters don't plan to survive it. For me, mass shootings are a failure of a citizenry to have the means and the tools to defend themselves when they needed to. The over-riding emotion I feel whenever there is a public shooting is fear and anger that no one could stop it sooner.
It is only ever going to be armed citizens who stop mass shootings. It will NOT be gun control laws. They can't stop them... Any more than you can outlaw human evil. They will only ever be stopped by a citizenry who believes and is ready and prepared for their own self-defense. And a shooter who is afraid of running into one of us.
Sometimes it works the way it should. I celebrate those people and can only pray to do as well if I'm ever tested.
Diana,
I don't think it an either or proposition. Where does the bill discourage arming citizens? This bill has nothing do to with that. That isn't even something you're going to legislate. People will buy more guns if they want to. So, to many of that sounds more like a deflection than what's really being addressed in the bill.
Where we likely disagree is that you and many others do not believe setting limits of any kind on firearms will ever help matters. The answer never involves limits. My only challenge to that thinking and last comment I'll make is, why then have limits at all? If guns aren't ever the problem, allow everyone to carry including children if that is what you truly believe. Every child goes to school with a gun in their lunch pale. That will really fix things in America - more and more guns everywhere with no limits. If that makes perfect sense, then hey, that what the poles are for.
I don't think it an either or proposition. Where does the bill discourage arming citizens? This bill has nothing do to with that.
It doesn't *help* the goal. What did I say was the only thing that would help? "It is only ever going to be armed citizens who stop mass shootings. It will NOT be gun control laws."
Magazine limits only interfere with the law abiding. It's not going to stop anyone who wants to do bad things. It won't stop or deter or change anything.
That's a reason NOT to write the law. Not a reason to do it.
I don't think it an either or proposition. Where does the bill discourage arming citizens? This bill has nothing do to with that. That isn't even something you're going to legislate. People will buy more guns if they want to. So, to many of that sounds more like a deflection than what's really being addressed in the bill.
Where we likely disagree is that you and many others do not believe setting limits of any kind on firearms will ever help matters. The answer never involves limits. My only challenge to that thinking and last comment I'll make is, why then have limits at all? If guns aren't ever the problem, allow everyone to carry including children if that is what you truly believe. Every child goes to school with a gun in their lunch pale. That will really fix things in America - more and more guns everywhere with no limits. If that makes perfect sense, then hey, that what the poles are for.
Derek
Don't knock it til we've at least tried it.
An armed society is a polite society.
ON edit: *Mostly joking of course, there are many rights and privileges that are granted to adults or people above a certain age of reason and responsibility - This should probably be one of them.
But FWIW, when I was in high school, we had a rifle team in school, who often had guns with them at school to use during practice at the range after school. There were rules and lockers for them, but it was up to the kids to follow the rules.
And we had a lot of kids with rifles in gun racks during hunting season.
Availability isn't the main problem.
Last edited by Diana Holbrook; 02-19-2022 at 06:32 PM..
I know I said that would be my last post, so I guess I lied. But want to apologize if I offended anyone. I know many good folks have strong believes about guns as do I. We just don't necessarily see things the same way.
I also have family who have experienced a mass school shooting firsthand and are forever changed by it. So, it's not just some random, rare thing you see on the news for us. The kids who survived saw friends die including one brave boy who paid the ultimate price tackling the gunman before being shot. The shooter was not skilled. Rather, he simply pulled the trigger and sprayed as many rounds off into the crowd he could before being tackled to the ground. So, yes, even a few seconds to reload can make a big difference if it saves childrens' lives which it would have in this case. It does matter regardless how fast you can think you can reload your gun. Even a few seconds can save someone's life in these cases.
That said, I'm also for arming more trained school personnel. I think both can help with this major societal problem we have in America.
I know I said that would be my last post, so I guess I lied. But want to apologize if I offended anyone. I know many good folks have strong believes about guns as do I. We just don't necessarily see things the same way.
I also have family who have experienced a mass school shooting firsthand and are forever changed by it. So, it's not just some random, rare thing you see on the news for us. The kids who survived saw friends die including one brave boy who paid the ultimate price tackling the gunman before being shot. The shooter was not skilled. Rather, he simply pulled the trigger and sprayed as many rounds off into the crowd he could before being tackled to the ground. So, yes, even a few seconds to reload can make a big difference if it saves childrens' lives which it would have in this case. It does matter regardless how fast you can think you can reload your gun. Even a few seconds can save someone's life in these cases.
That said, I'm also for arming more trained school personnel. I think both can help with this major societal problem we have in America.
Derek
Thank you for your thoughts.
I may disagree with you on most of your positions, but, we have common ground that we both agree on the most important issue. Neither of us want to see innocent people being shot. Neither of us want to see mass shootings, neither of us want to see victims.
We agreed on that, as every sane person should. We just disagree on how to get there.
Americans in general need to stop allowing themselves to be painted by labels into groups if you just talk to people "on the other side" you'll find out that perhaps shockingly you have things in common. People need to talk more.
Social media, big mass media and self serving pandering career politicians are the number one cause America is being driven over a cliff. We as citizens are being divided and conquered and spend all of our energy yelling at each other.
Here's how dumb gun laws can become. I have my NY state unrestricted pistol license which are very hard to get by the way. But I can't wear my pistol if I take my kid to school. I have to leave it at home. I've already gone through background checks, I've taken lengthy pistol legal classes, I'm a veteran, I've had police interviews with a detective,I've had to provide character references, I've had to get electronic finger printing. All to get my pistol license. I as a private citizens are held to a higher standard than police are. If I screw up and harm someone I can personally be sued or imprisoned. I can't claim I'm a government agent acting on official business. If a cop shoots you by mistake you can't sue the department. If I shoot you by mistake you can sue me and on top of it I'll be in prison.
Yet, after all that, all that responsibility I'm not allowed to carry my pistol on school property. The only people allowed are police. Not even teachers or school employees who have gone through more training than me. We have created an environment where criminals know they can do as they please without any immediate counter force. Without anyone immediately available to stop them. They gave free run to do as they please and they know it.
Now I'm not saying "arm everyone" because I think that's a horrible idea for many reasons. Only people who CHOOSE and WANT to carry guns should do so. But there should be an avenue for carefully vetted and trained individuals to do so. Even if a would be bad guy in the back of his mind thought "hmmm I bet 5% of the adults in here might be carrying and could immediately stop me....". Would either be enough of a deterrent or if the would be bad guy carried out their plan they are stopped much faster and the damage is lessend.
Even as anti gunners, you have to realize pragmatically there are more guns than people in this country. They're not going away. The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. God willing I'll NEVER once ever have to draw my gun and I hope I don't. It would please me to die an old man and never have to. But as a man I would loathe myself forever if I was in a position to stop something horrible and for some reason (gun control laws) was unable to do so.
Responsible gun owners constantly try to mentally think ahead and play out scenarios in their minds. One that haunts me, (all hypothetical of course) is what if I'm running errands and my kid is sick at school and I get a call from the nurse to pick them up. I'm perhaps only 2 mins away so I think I'll just zip right over. I happen to be carrying my pistol. I know I won't get noticed and I'll be in and out in 2 mins no big deal...... What if while I'm signing my kid out there is an active shooter. What would I do? Would I just take my kid and run out and not try to help anyone but by being a coward I would be staying out of prison, or would I go put myself at risk and try to save lives knowing that doing so would be a "do not pass go, go directly to jail" scenario.
Last edited by drinkthekoolaid; 02-19-2022 at 08:36 PM..
I may disagree with you on most of your positions, but, we have common ground that we both agree on the most important issue. Neither of us want to see innocent people being shot. Neither of us want to see mass shootings, neither of us want to see victims.
We agreed on that, as every sane person should. We just disagree on how to get there.
Americans in general need to stop allowing themselves to be painted by labels into groups if you just talk to people "on the other side" you'll find out that perhaps shockingly you have things in common. People need to talk more.
Social media, big mass media and self serving pandering career politicians are the number one cause America is being driven over a cliff. We as citizens are being divided and conquered and spend all of our energy yelling at each other.
Here's how dumb gun laws can become. I have my NY state unrestricted pistol license which are very hard to get by the way. But I can't wear my pistol if I take my kid to school. I have to leave it at home. I've already gone through background checks, I've taken lengthy pistol legal classes, I'm a veteran, I've had police interviews with a detective,I've had to provide character references, I've had to get electronic finger printing. All to get my pistol license. I as a private citizens are held to a higher standard than police are. If I screw up and harm someone I can personally be sued or imprisoned. I can't claim I'm a government agent acting on official business. If a cop shoots you by mistake you can't sue the department. If I shoot you by mistake you can sue me and on top of it I'll be in prison.
Yet, after all that, all that responsibility I'm not allowed to carry my pistol on school property. The only people allowed are police. Not even teachers or school employees who have gone through more training than me. We have created an environment where criminals know they can do as they please without any immediate counter force. Without anyone immediately available to stop them. They gave free run to do as they please and they know it.
Now I'm not saying "arm everyone" because I think that's a horrible idea for many reasons. Only people who CHOOSE and WANT to carry guns should do so. But there should be an avenue for carefully vetted and trained individuals to do so. Even if a would be bad guy in the back of his mind thought "hmmm I bet 5% of the adults in here might be carrying and could immediately stop me....". Would either be enough of a deterrent or if the would be bad guy carried out their plan they are stopped much faster and the damage is lessend.
Even as anti gunners, you have to realize pragmatically there are more guns than people in this country. They're not going away. The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. God willing I'll NEVER once ever have to draw my gun and I hope I don't. It would please me to die an old man and never have to. But as a man I would loathe myself forever if I was in a position to stop something horrible and for some reason (gun control laws) was unable to do so.
Responsible gun owners constantly try to mentally think ahead and play out scenarios in their minds. One that haunts me, (all hypothetical of course) is what if I'm running errands and my kid is sick at school and I get a call from the nurse to pick them up. I'm perhaps only 2 mins away so I think I'll just zip right over. I happen to be carrying my pistol. I know I won't get noticed and I'll be in and out in 2 mins no big deal...... What if while I'm signing my kid out there is an active shooter. What would I do? Would I just take my kid and run out and not try to help anyone but by being a coward I would be staying out of prison, or would I go put myself at risk and try to save lives knowing that doing so would be a "do not pass go, go directly to jail" scenario.
Thanks for sharing your perspective and the thought process of dealing with such a situation if it were ever to happen. I agree we need citizens who are armed and can take down an active shooter. In the case of our family, the young football player did everything in *his* power to stop the killing of his friends at the coast of his own life. He was a true hero.
Derek
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The whole post is about things no one here argued against in the first place. You're picking on someone who was answering a side issue someone else brought up. 
