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Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,031,425 times
Reputation: 46172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver
The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
...
The grass is definitely not green here in my Texas properties (severe drought). My 300'ft long by 40' deep pond is dry and cracked. Neighbors just sold their last batch of cows, keeping the lambs and goats through the upcoming muslim and christian holidays. They bring very good prices and take far less feed.
My Texas tax assessors have been far more reasonable than my WA assessors, and I contest in each location annually if unreasonable increases (always in WA, seldom in TX.) I have got my (6) Texas properties valuations cut in half, but my WA valuations are ~2x true market value (as-is / current condition).
I pay over $30k annual property taxes to each state, so cumlative property tax outlay is more than my highest ever wage earning yr. How does that work? not well Fortunately, positive cash flows from my Texas properties (including Texas Property taxes and HIGH insurance rates), still covers my WA taxes. That doesn't leave much money for paying medical insurance and food. But those expenses are 'discretionary'... I was just out picking up Texas Trash (beer cans), of which I can collect (3) 30gal trash cans / per day along my country road. My Texas neighbors keep my free trash collection service in great demand. I haven't collected a trash bag of beer cans in 30 yrs at my WA residence. Then I have renters to clean up after. I have a very tall deck on one property, so that results in mountains of Texas trash. Mostly dirty disposable diapers and plastic jugs full of spent chewing tobacco, but plenty of beer cans too. Lots and lots of degraded styrofoam take-out and big gulps. Really pleasant way to earn money for medical care and food. ... (I never feel much like eating after picking up Texas trash, lots of urine bombs from truck drivers too.)
My properties in a couple WA counties are far more reasonable than other counties (~1/2 less assessment and ~1/3 less levy in some cases). Of course the stated goal from my WA appraiser is to force my home to tax sale so his parents from CA can buy it and join his family in their WA escape. I'm not impressed that he uses prime sweetspots for comps and they are all spiffed and marketed through a realtor, so sell way over a reasonable comparible price (mine is beat up and goes to charity, of course I would rather GIVE it away than deal with a realtor!). And his comps are FAR different view, setting, build, and material quality than my old beater econo home. But even if my home burnt to the ground, I would still be taxed over $500k valuation on my $20k bare and crispy lot. Even tho I have forestry exemption on most my property, the "improved acreage" (county uses one acre minimum for homesite = 42,000sf) Then they add Well $80k (which was free (existing) for me) then $50k for septic, (Which I installed myself for $300), roads and fences (~$20 fuel for my dozer), $20k for electric service (hand trenched by me). i.e My assessor thinks very high of my valuation vs. my cost basis. And of course, since I will never sell or be able to replace my home, I just need to kindly bow to his highness and smile all the way to the tax sale when he eventually gets his way, and his parent's end up with a very nice (but very worn out 'fixer'). I'm sure they'll get a great deal, and live happily ever after... as do thousands every day who have displaced WA residents who built the fine communities for other's to enjoy..
My properties in a couple WA counties are far more reasonable than other counties (~1/2 less assessment and ~1/3 less levy in some cases). Of course the stated goal from my WA appraiser is to force my home to tax sale so his parents from CA can buy it and join his family in their WA escape. I'm not impressed that he uses prime sweetspots for comps and they are all spiffed and marketed through a realtor, so sell way over a reasonable comparible price (mine is beat up and goes to charity, of course I would rather GIVE it away than deal with a realtor!). And his comps are FAR different view, setting, build, and material quality than my old beater econo home. But even if my home burnt to the ground, I would still be taxed over $500k valuation on my $20k bare and crispy lot. Even tho I have forestry exemption on most my property, the "improved acreage" (county uses one acre minimum for homesite = 42,000sf) Then they add Well $80k (which was free (existing) for me) then $50k for septic, (Which I installed myself for $300), roads and fences (~$20 fuel for my dozer), $20k for electric service (hand trenched by me). i.e My assessor thinks very high of my valuation vs. my cost basis. And of course, since I will never sell or be able to replace my home, I just need to kindly bow to his highness and smile all the way to the tax sale when he eventually gets his way, and his parent's end up with a very nice (but very worn out 'fixer'). I'm sure they'll get a great deal, and live happily ever after... as do thousands every day who have displaced WA residents who built the fine communities for other's to enjoy..
Alternatively, you could donate it to charity or the 'Friends' of the Gorge. Then, leave a basic quarters for the land maintenance dude a.k.a. Stealth and kin. Then the tax assessor can't give it to his mom from CA on a fire sale deal. What are the chances it sells at what he assessed it at? There's gotta be better ways to divest than that.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,031,425 times
Reputation: 46172
Zero chance it will sell for even 50% of assessment. It's beat, and I'm not fixing it.
"Friends of the Gorge" have provided 30 yrs of misery to living in an otherwise pleasant (tho stormy) location. They can buy it from my designated charity, which is very likely. My charity will put the funds to good use, and the FoG have unlimited funds via sympathizers. I'll have my neighbors run the price up, so the FoG can send out more 'panic' email blasts to raise more money.
It will work out well for my charity, but it requires working to the bone and creative financing, and starving the family to hang on each yr, just for a dry place to sleep. Living under a Bridge is pretty crowded these days.
Here is a $1,375,000 listing in Camas WA that is 4,048 sf and has a lake view: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2...23255019_zpid/ Scroll down to the taxes and you will see that... their 2021 property taxes were $10,134 on an assessed value of $908,434
There's something wrenchingly unpleasant about such a grand property being so close to neighbors... a mansion saddled with the "Mc" prefix. Even so, it's remarkable that property taxes are so low, given the relatively good local schools (am I right about that?) and the general affluence/safety/amenities/prestige of the neighborhood. In other words, where's the catch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit
...I was just out picking up Texas Trash (beer cans), of which I can collect (3) 30gal trash cans / per day along my country road. My Texas neighbors keep my free trash collection service in great demand.
Not the most resoundingly positive endorsement of living in Texas, or of being a landlord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit
Of course the stated goal from my WA appraiser is to force my home to tax sale so his parents from CA can buy it and join his family in their WA escape.
Sounds like a Javert to your Jean Valjean. Any way to appeal this to higher authorities?
There's something wrenchingly unpleasant about such a grand property being so close to neighbors... a mansion saddled with the "Mc" prefix. Even so, it's remarkable that property taxes are so low, given the relatively good local schools (am I right about that?) and the general affluence/safety/amenities/prestige of the neighborhood. In other words, where's the catch?
A beautiful, large home on a 1/2 acre with a view of the lake AND Mt. Hood for $1.37 mil in an excellent school district. What's not to like? That is if you want/need a home that large.
Wanting it to be more separated from other homes in such an high value location (more than 1/2 acre) with big views and close proximity to amenities is very unlikely to find. If you want more land, you need to go more out into the country or in the mountains where chances of finding such views (water and big mountain) are harder to come by. And you'll be further out. We have friends on ranch property in east Camas and it's super hard to find that kind of thing for sale. But they do have a view of Mt. Hood from their land, no water view though. And it would likely cost more than the home above due to its acreage. If you don't care about a view, it might be a little easier to find acreage properties.
There is no catch. Some governments might be operated more efficiently than others, some might have more corruption than others, some might have more costs due to terrain/weather, some might be newer so maintenance costs have not materialized yet, etc.
I can elaborate on one point. A big sink for taxpayer funds is underfunded defined benefit (DB) pensions and retiree healthcare for government employee. Imagine you are on the city council or a mayor, and the government employee unions are negotiating pay. You can agree to pay $X in cash now like businesses do (401k, HSA, etc), or you can agree to pay $Y/month 30 years in the future, and $Z < $X now.
The federal government exempted all governments from rules about how to calculate the present value of that $Y/month 30 years in the future, so you (and the union bosses you are negotiating with) get to choose how this is calculated, with zero liability. In 30 years, you will be gone and so will the union bosses, so you choose to assume a very high return on investments (called a discount rate) to discount the future cash flow.
For example, the Pension Protection Act of 2006 requires businesses to use the yield curves of high grade corporate bonds to value DB pension liabilities. See here for the approximate yields:
A taxpayer funded pension plan, however, will use whatever the pension plan's trustees say, staffed with the politician and union bosses (who are older, and will be gone by the time **** hits the fan). Typically, this has been 7% to 8%. A rough rule of thumb for pension liabilities is a change in discount rate of 1% affects liabilities ~15%. So if you assume a return on investment that is 2% higher than the real return on investment, you have probably underestimated your costs by 30% or more.
So back to the local/state governments. If you are a politician, you can agree to pay $Y per month in the future, but choose to have it calculated so that "normal cost" (the supposed present value of the future benefits) is low enough that DB pension and retiree healthcare looks lower cost than simply paying employees more in cash today and not having that debt on (and off) the books. And if you are running for office, you will tout this as a plan to lower taxes today, while a competing candidate who does not want this off the book debt will lose the election because they will have to increase taxes today.
This whole thing gets papered over as long as your tax base is growing, and the taxing jurisdictions economic/population growth is outpacing the growth of the underfunded liabilities. It is only once the growth slows or stops that the taxes have to start being ratcheted up because more and more of the budget starts going towards paying off this debt that came out of "nowhere".
Anyway, this website puts together a list of city budgets where the pension liability is calculated, if it were to have been offered by a business and had to follow proper accounting rules:
If you are in a place with outlier debt per taxpayer, then I would expect some combination of relatively higher taxes and lower quality/quantity of government infrastructure/services.
There is no catch. Some governments might be operated more efficiently than others, some might have more corruption than others, some might have more costs due to terrain/weather, some might be newer so maintenance costs have not materialized yet, etc.
I can elaborate on one point. A big sink for taxpayer funds is underfunded defined benefit (DB) pensions and retiree healthcare for government employee. ...
That stands to reason, but I'd surmise that the more "libertarian" states such as Texas would have smaller government staff and less generous remuneration for said staff. Why would they have comparatively higher taxes? Or is there some "stealth" tax ready to wallop the gullible and unsuspecting?
There's something wrenchingly unpleasant about such a grand property being so close to neighbors... a mansion saddled with the "Mc" prefix. Even so, it's remarkable that property taxes are so low, given the relatively good local schools (am I right about that?) and the general affluence/safety/amenities/prestige of the neighborhood. In other words, where's the catch?
No catch. The county appraisal hasn't caught up with the sale price, but again, that's the asking price and they may well not get it. The appraisal is about $400K lower. But you have to file sale prices with the county unlike in TX so it will eventually catch up. That is the Lacamas Shores subdivision along Lacamas Lake and it is the most upscale part of Camas with a lot of homes that are larger and more expensive. There is a fancy golf course and country club next door. Not everyone wants to live more rural. Some people prefer sidewalks, neighbors, streetlights, and being closer to amenities so you don't have to drive 20 min for every shopping errand, music lesson, soccer practice, etc.
Yes, Camas schools are probably the top rated schools in Clark County and roughly the equivalent of the top districts over in the suburbs on the Portland side. They pump out lots of high achieving kids each year including a handful bound for the Ivies and equivalents.
The point is that despite all the wailing here about property taxes, they really aren't out of line compared to a lot of other states. ESPECIALLY other states like TX that also have no income tax. Maybe you can get lower property taxes by moving to rural Idaho or Wyoming. But then you are living in rural Idaho or Wyoming.
We are upper middle class and I frankly haven't found the tax burden here in WA to be any different from Texas. It is pretty much a wash. Despite Texas having such as reputation as being a conservative low tax state. Oregon is very different because it is income tax based rather than sales tax based. But property taxes also seem a bit higher if you do an apples to apples comparison.
I just picked one random example from Happy Valley OR which is comparable to Camas and found this listing for for $1.2 million https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/9...48304075_zpid/ Their 2021 taxes were $15,184 for an appraised value of $800K so quite a bit higher than Camas and that is for Clackamas County which is the eastern suburbs of Portland.
That right there is exhibit #1 as to why a lot of affluent people move from Portland over to the more posh neighborhoods in the Vancouver area like Camas, Felida, and Salmon Creek as well as places like the Columbia River shorline on the Vancouver side. Cut your property taxes by $10K, eliminate your state income tax of 9.9% and evade a lot of sales tax by buying big ticket items back across the river. Very few other places in the country you can do the same thing while still staying in the same metro area. Of course you have to take your job with you across the river too. If you commute back to Portland for your job you'll still pay income tax. But if you assume you take your job with you and you are an upper income household earning say $200K per year your tax savings are going to be on the order of $50K per year by moving across the river. That will pay for a kid and a half to attend a state school university including room and board. And your state university options are better on the WA side of the river as well. You do the math.
Last edited by texasdiver; 01-27-2023 at 10:45 PM..
That stands to reason, but I'd surmise that the more "libertarian" states such as Texas would have smaller government staff and less generous remuneration for said staff. Why would they have comparatively higher taxes? Or is there some "stealth" tax ready to wallop the gullible and unsuspecting?
My comment did elaborate on one prominent stealth tax. Just because a politician calls themself “libertarian” or whatever does not mean they are. In any case, more expenses means higher taxes, sooner or later. For example, Texas might be spending inordinate amounts of money on redundant police departments. Or spending extra on air conditioning excessively large indoor spaces. Or on extra fuel because of extra distances traveled because neighbors are not so close to each other. Or on lawyers litigating laws that the feds will overrule.
The population mix matters too. If the jurisdiction has a lot more poor people and businesses relative to richer people and businesses,, then the richer people will not have to subsidize as much. WA’s residents and businesses are ranked relatively highly compared to Texas’ in terms of income and GDP per capita.
My comment did elaborate on one prominent stealth tax. Just because a politician calls themself “libertarian” or whatever does not mean they are. In any case, more expenses means higher taxes, sooner or later. For example, Texas might be spending inordinate amounts of money on redundant police departments. Or spending extra on air conditioning excessively large indoor spaces. Or on extra fuel because of extra distances traveled because neighbors are not so close to each other. Or on lawyers litigating laws that the feds will overrule.
The population mix matters too. If the jurisdiction has a lot more poor people and businesses relative to richer people and businesses,, then the richer people will not have to subsidize as much. WA’s residents and businesses are ranked relatively highly compared to Texas’ in terms of income and GDP per capita.
Take a look at your summer water and electric bills in a typical Texas suburb and you'll find where some of that stealth tax is hiding. There are also toll roads all over Texas which add up quickly.
And then there is the issue where you have to travel 600 miles into the New Mexico Rockies to find the nearest location that isn't 105 degrees in July and August.
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Fortunately, positive cash flows from my Texas properties (including Texas Property taxes and HIGH insurance rates), still covers my WA taxes. That doesn't leave much money for paying medical insurance and food. But those expenses are 'discretionary'
... I was just out picking up Texas Trash (beer cans), of which I can collect (3) 30gal trash cans / per day along my country road. My Texas neighbors keep my free trash collection service in great demand. I haven't collected a trash bag of beer cans in 30 yrs at my WA residence. Then I have renters to clean up after. I have a very tall deck on one property, so that results in mountains of Texas trash. Mostly dirty disposable diapers and plastic jugs full of spent chewing tobacco, but plenty of beer cans too. Lots and lots of degraded styrofoam take-out and big gulps. Really pleasant way to earn money for medical care and food. ... (I never feel much like eating after picking up Texas trash, lots of urine bombs from truck drivers too.)
). And his comps are FAR different view, setting, build, and material quality than my old beater econo home. But even if my home burnt to the ground, I would still be taxed over $500k valuation on my $20k bare and crispy lot. Even tho I have forestry exemption on most my property, the "improved acreage" (county uses one acre minimum for homesite = 42,000sf) Then they add Well $80k (which was free (existing) for me) then $50k for septic, (Which I installed myself for $300), roads and fences (~$20 fuel for my dozer), $20k for electric service (hand trenched by me). i.e My assessor thinks very high of my valuation vs. my cost basis. And of course, since I will never sell or be able to replace my home, I just need to kindly bow to his highness and smile all the way to the tax sale when he eventually gets his way, and his parent's end up with a very nice (but very worn out 'fixer'). I'm sure they'll get a great deal, and live happily ever after... as do thousands every day who have displaced WA residents who built the fine communities for other's to enjoy.
.
What are the chances it sells at what he assessed it at? There's gotta be better ways to divest than that.
