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Old 09-22-2010, 08:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWood View Post
"subarctic" in Melbourne? Nonsense.

I think he meant to say sub-ANTARCTIC.
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:49 AM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCanadian View Post
Eureka California probably isn't subarctic imho; just a VERY-feral maritime climate.
Melbourne and Hobart are both better than Eureka.

There may be parts of Oz in that can claim sub-polar at high enough altitudes however. VIC/TAS mountains?

Without a sharp winter (like Toronto or colder)
I think it might be fair to define sub-polar as no month's highs average 20 C or higher.
Canada has climates on the east coast, 47 degree N latitude where summer avg highs never reach 17 C.
Hmm. Would you consider Newfoundland (or maybe Nova Scotia) subartic? I think a good definition of subarctic is a place with cold winters (< -3C) (to rule out maritime climates) and cool summers.
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
These species are much, much rarer in the wild in the Ottawa Valley than in the Toronto area, though they will grow and survive in your garden if you plant them (some people do).
Ottawa is milder and/or warmer than Thunder Bay though.

I would consider Ottawa to be a transitional area to sub-Arctic climates, not truly sub-Arctic.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a truely sub-Arctic climate within 1-2 hrs drive of Ottawa though.
I have seen boreal-looking landscape around Ottawa, as well as in the Bruce Peninsula.
These areas I would also consider transitional.

Toronto imho is not the best example of a temperate climate,
but seems more temperate than anything else. (cold-temperate imho)
For me, "classic" temperate climates have annual means between 10-15 C (50's F)

I would consider Orangeville ON and Barrie ON a transitional-area like Ottawa,
as they are in the mixed forest region, and have a frost-free season up to 60 days shorter than Toronto.
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Hmm. Would you consider Newfoundland (or maybe Nova Scotia) subartic? I think a good definition of subarctic is a place with cold winters (< -3C) (to rule out maritime climates) and cool summers.
Actually I have seen Canadian eco-region maps that consider most/all of the island of Newfoundland to be sub-Arctic.
Probably related to growth-stunting cool summers.

The place with the warmest month less than 17 C was Port-aux-Basques in southwest Newfoundland.
The growing season there is so short, and very feeble levels of warmth and sun hrs.
January daily mean is also -5.2 C; not very maritime.
Okay I made a mistake with Port-aux-Basques;
July is 16.7 C but August is 18.3 C. Still has summers below 20 C (68 F) though.

Canadian Climate Normals 1971-2000 | Canada's National Climate Archive

I probably wouldn't consider Nova Scotia sub-arctic,
but perhaps highland areas of Cape Breton might be.

Boobs:
That there is a truly feral climate, that even bends the definition of a "maritime climate."
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:11 AM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
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So maybe 42-50 is cold temperate, 50-59 is warm temperate. Below 42 is subarctic and above 59 is subtropical, and add a maritime if the winters are relatively warm.
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
So maybe 42-50 is cold temperate, 50-59 is warm temperate. Below 42 is subarctic and above 59 is subtropical, and add a maritime if the winters are relatively warm.
Just like how most people think of 65-72 F annual means for "classic subtropical" but many will consider annual means of 62-63 F still subtropical.

For me, a classic example of "temperate" means avg # of frost-free days of at least 6 months, (183+ days)
and either a balance in length of winter and summer, or summer being marginally-longer than winter.
Windsor comes close, but barely misses with an annual mean of 49 F and a growing season about 170-175 days long.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:11 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCanadian View Post
Just like how most people think of 65-72 F annual means for "classic subtropical" but many will consider annual means of 62-63 F still subtropical.

For me, a classic example of "temperate" means avg # of frost-free days of at least 6 months, (183+ days)
and either a balance in length of winter and summer, or summer being marginally-longer than winter.
Windsor comes close, but barely misses with an annual mean of 49 F and a growing season about 170-175 days long.
Where I grew up in Long Island had a frost-free season of about 200-210 days and a mean of 52, so perhaps it was classically temperate. Northwestern Europe has a similar mean and even longer frost-free period, so perhaps it is warm maritime temperate.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:13 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCanadian View Post

I probably wouldn't consider Nova Scotia sub-arctic,
but perhaps highland areas of Cape Breton might be.
I remember highland Cape Breton as looking a bit more boreal looking, or closer to Newfoundland. Coastal Nova Scoatia and Nova Scotia seem to have more evergreens than further inland. Perhaps that's because of the cooler summers?
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCanadian View Post
Ottawa is milder and/or warmer than Thunder Bay though.

I would consider Ottawa to be a transitional area to sub-Arctic climates, not truly sub-Arctic.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a truely sub-Arctic climate within 1-2 hrs drive of Ottawa though.
I have seen boreal-looking landscape around Ottawa, as well as in the Bruce Peninsula.
These areas I would also consider transitional.

Toronto imho is not the best example of a temperate climate,
but seems more temperate than anything else. (cold-temperate imho)
For me, "classic" temperate climates have annual means between 10-15 C (50's F)

I would consider Orangeville ON and Barrie ON a transitional-area like Ottawa,
as they are in the mixed forest region, and have a frost-free season up to 60 days shorter than Toronto.
Well, about 150 km north of Ottawa, Maniwaki (Dfb) is only about 1-1.5 degrees off the Ottawa averages for both summer and winter. But 50 km further than Maniwaki, in the huge La Vérendrye park, you enter into a similar, significantly colder climate that is like that of Abitibi in northwestern Quebec and places like Timmins and Kapuskasing in northern Ontario. This is Koppen Dfc country, so if Dfc is considered sub-arctic (which I think it is), then this is it. The park is often even colder than areas north of it, because there are no towns there to create heat islands.

Regarding Dfb, it extends into northern Ontario on the north shore of Lake Superior. North Bay, Sudbury and Sault Ste Marie are all Dfb, though slightly colder than Ottawa. Toronto is also Dfb, although it would be pretty much the warmest variant of Dfb.

To me, the Ottawa-Montreal is classic Dfb, near-north Ontario (Sudbury, North Bay) is cold Dfb and Toronto and area are warm Dfb.

Barrie and Orangeville actually have relatively similar climates to Ottawa's.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:28 AM
 
Location: In transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterNZ View Post
On the other hand, the climate of Campbell Island (south of New Zealand at 53 S) is not even classified as sub-polar (can we use this term so as to be hemisphere-neutral please?) but is actually considered polar, since every month averages below 10 C / 50 F. However, it has an annual mean temp of about 7 C (about the same as Toronto), which is about 6 - 7 C warmer than the places you mentioned. Its coldest month averages well above freezing.

It seems unfair to lump in Campbell Island with the likes of Vostok Station. There is a "maritime subarctic climate" (Cfc) under Koppen, but Campbell Island doesn't even fit into this. The temperature doesn't drop below -4 C in the average year there, so it's relatively mild. "Oceanic tundra" would seem to be the most accurate description, but this kind of climate seems to be virtually limited to Campbell Island, so maybe it doesn't merit its own category. The only other places I'm aware of that has every month averaging above freezing but no month above 10 C / 50 F are nearby Macquarie Island and Ushuaia, Argentina.

The flora of Campbell Island is what you'd expect of a tundra climate. There are no trees (or at least none with rigid trunks) and not really many plants other than a few endemic "mega herbs" which I believe occur nowhere else in the world outside of the NZ subantarctic.

I came upon an interesting note in the Wikipedia article on polar climates:



By Nordenskiöl's reckoning, Campbell Island would not meet the requirement for a polar climate (if we define 'polar' as being above the latitudinal treeline) and would be categorised as sub-polar instead.


Under Holdridge's system I suppose Campbell Island would be classed as boreal or cool temperate rather than polar or sub-polar.


In terms of vegetation I would say:


Ice cap (Koppen EF) - no vegetation
Tundra (Koppen ET) - no trees but maybe a few shrubs and bushes
Sub-polar - slow growing, stunted trees, poor agricultural potential
Cool temperate and continental - extensive forest


Feel free to expand on this. Basically, I see the sub-polar region as the transition zone in the vicinity of the (ant)arctic treeline. This region is characterised by a lack of dense forests (similar to a savannah) -- trees may grow, but only in low density and with very stunted growth (such that their wood is unsuitable for carpentry / construction). In many cases, trees may only grow in sheltered microclimates, giving rise to patchy tree formations.


An analogy can be made with alpine tree lines -- seen from the ground it's a sharp transition, but on closer inspection there's a definite gray area between dense forest and a complete lack of trees. The sub-polar region is that same gray area with regard to (ant)arctic treelines.

I would consider Campbell Island to be on the boundary between Maritime Subpolar and a Polar Tundra climate because it's warmest month averages only 9.6C. This in theory should be just high enough to support the growth of some trees as Ushuaia has virtually the same average in its warmest month as Campbell Island and the Magellanic Subpolar Forests are all around there. I'm sure if you planted the same species that grow in Ushuaia on Campbell Island, they would grow there no problem.

In the northern hemisphere, it's the length of the winter rather than the short to non-existent summer that inhibits tree growth and why you can still get fairly dense forests in places with subpolar climates. The southern boundary of a subpolar climate in the Northern Hemisphere is more variable and gradually grades into temperate climates in places where the growing season is long enough to support more species of broadleaf deciduous trees than evergreens. Places like Ottawa, Ontario and Fargo, ND are 2 good examples of cities which are in this transition area between subpolar and temperate in my opinion.
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