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I'm not arguing that all of Southern Australia should be sub-tropical, but I'm arguing that if you consider the Southern US sub-tropical, even places like New Orleans, you have to consider most of even Southern Australia sub-tropical too.
I think Australia's "subtropical" zone a bit small, and their "tropical zone" a bit big.
The way I see coastal tropical climates, no month should avg below 21 C/70 F
This excludes Townsville with their coolest mean at 19.6 C. (1.4 C too-cool )
Bananas grow like weeds in New Orleans.
They are tender annuals in most parts of the southeast.
New Orleans is clogged with sub-tropical and certain tropical plants.
I've seen citrus and fruit-filled papaya trees growing in NOLA.
Tropicals may get zapped over some winters, but 9+ months a year probably make them worthwhile.
I think most of us are argueing over subtleties when most of us are actually in agreement.
By debating the 65 F/18 C isotherm,
New Orleans is still subtropical, as is the entire US Gulf Coast.
It means Mobile AL is subtropical but Montgomery AL isn't.
Sydney AMO annual avg = 22.2 C/13.4 C... making a 17.4 C their mean.
I agree that mean-wise Sydney is barely sub-tropical.
Sydney AMO has about 4.5 months with avg lows exceeding 60 F; sub-tropical-ish.
ChesterNZ and maybe other members from the southern hemisphere felt comfy with 17 C/63 F means being subtropical.
I would count places Atlanta as "warm-temperate."
Lows below 45 F/7 C are very common starting mid-Oct; Brrr!!!!!
I said most of the South not just the Gulf coast region, and the great map wavehunter provided clearly shows the 65F isotherm (corresponding to 18C) just skirts the Gulf coast of the South, and accounts for a fraction of the South.
I'm not arguing that all of Southern Australia should be sub-tropical, but I'm arguing that if you consider the Southern US sub-tropical, even places like New Orleans, you have to consider most of even Southern Australia sub-tropical too. Personally I've always thought of most of the regions in question both countries as just being warm temperate, but I see that both have sub-tropical elements, but with temperate features (frontal precipitation and a prevailing westerly wind direction for instance).
Yes, I agree that New Orleans is as sub-tropical as Sydney -
There is no way on earth Sydney is Humid Subtropical like New Orleans, Corpus, Savannah, Charleston..etc. We have family who lived in both NYC and Sydney - and describe their time in Sydney as NYC without the Nov to March months. They never mentioned Deep South style heat, humidity, thundery/convective storms, tropical cyclones, snakes, gators…etc. Yes, Brisbane feels humid subtropical, the land, the wildlife...etc. Sydney no way.
It also untrue that many temperate areas get just as hot in summer as places deep in the humid subtropics. Most areas in the East Asian humid subtropics (Fuzhou, Changsha, Shanghai, Osaka…ect) and the American humid subtropics (New Orleans, Corpus Christi, Mobile, Savannah, Charleston, Jackson, Gulfport…etc) have monthly mean temps in summer of 80 to 81 F (27/28 C)…higher than any temperate climate areas I know of. Most tropical climates also have summer (high sun) and annual mean temperatures of 77 to 83 F ( 25 – 28 C). Sydney’s mean annual temp of 20 C is so low, and it seems absurd to use any word with “tropical” in it. Just because Australia has cooler humid subtropical zones – doesn’t make it the standard for all zones. There is a distinct two season pattern to wind flow in the Gulf states in winter (northerly-contentinental) and summer deep sultury, hot, (southerly,easterly-tropical, mT air). It has as much to do with dew points in tropical zones as rainfall patterns. Seattle has two seasons of rainfall and it's far from tropical anything - lol.
The main point: In Australia, the only truly humid subtropical zone like New Orleans/Gulf Coast is Brisbane southward into Queensland.
As to citrus, I into citrus big time. I don’t what/where there is citrus grown in Australia, but Florida is the number 2 producer of oranges in the world (only Brazil produces more). In the USA the citrus zone extends from Florida through the Gulf Coast, then skips to southern Arizona, and then into California. They now even have belts extending into the rice and sugarcane belts of southern Georgia and coastal South Carolina. Collectively, the USA produces many times the citrus that Australia (maybe 5 times more) does.
There is no way on earth Sydney is Humid Subtropical like New Orleans, Corpus, Savannah, Charleston..etc. We have family who lived in both NYC and Sydney - and describe their time in Sydney as NYC without the Nov to March months. They never mentioned Deep South style heat, humidity, thundery/convective storms, tropical cyclones, snakes, gators…etc. Yes, Brisbane feels humid subtropical, the land, the wildlife...etc. Sydney no way.
Sydney’s mean annual temp of 20 C is so low, and it seems absurd to use any word with “tropical” in it.
The main point: In Australia, the only truly humid subtropical zone like New Orleans/Gulf Coast is Brisbane southward into Queensland.
As to citrus, I into citrus big time. I don’t what/where there is citrus grown in Australia, but Florida is the number 2 producer of oranges in the world (only Brazil produces more). In the USA the citrus zone extends from Florida through the Gulf Coast, then skips to southern Arizona, and then into California. They now even have belts extending into the rice and sugarcane belts of southern Georgia and coastal South Carolina. Collectively, the USA produces many times the citrus that Australia (maybe 5 times more) does.
Sydney's mean is 17.4 C at the airport, dunno where you got 20 C from.
20 C isn't a low annual mean; Brisbane Regional Office's is like 20.7 C.
Southwards from Brisbane? Back to NSW?
Citrus seems to be grown in some of the coldest winter areas of mainland Australia.
I think a town of Griffon, NSW is supposed to be big on citrus and averages 16/5 Cish (60/42 F) in their coldest month?
I think they have records at least as low as -5 C/23 F.
Most areas in the East Asian humid subtropics (Fuzhou, Changsha, Shanghai, Osaka…ect) and the American humid subtropics (New Orleans, Corpus Christi, Mobile, Savannah, Charleston, Jackson, Gulfport…etc) have monthly mean temps in summer of 80 to 81 F (27/28 C)…higher than any temperate climate areas I know of.
This July, NYC average was 81.3F. Obviously not the norm, but temperate climates can have subtropical-ish weather. This July was probably slightly less humid and more variable than a true subtropical climate.
Sydney's mean is 17.4 C at the airport, dunno where you got 20 C from.
20 C isn't a low annual mean; Brisbane Regional Office's is like 20.7 C.
Southwards from Brisbane? Back to NSW?
Citrus seems to be grown in some of the coldest winter areas of mainland Australia.
I think a town of Griffon, NSW is supposed to be big on citrus and averages 16/5 Cish (60/42 F) in their coldest month?
I think they have records at least as low as -5 C/23 F.
Sugarcane grows around Jacksonville NC too.
Your right. According to Weather Data Sydney is even colder than I thought! Sydney is pretty close to the middle East Coast from VA to NYC from April to October. Than annual mean temp in Sydney in 63.5 F (17 C). What is the mean temp of Washington DC 58 - 59 F? (lol). No way Sydney is "subtropical" anything.
No Brisbane southward (toward the equator) into Queensland. NSW is temperate to me. Brisbane and Queensland looks/feels subtropical like the Gulf coast and Florida.
As far as citrus, yes it may grow in some of the colder parts of Australia (it is after all a lower latitude country)… but the southern USA from Florida to California (including the Gulf Coast) produces more oranges collectively than anywhere else in the world. The State of Florida by itself is number 2 in the world next to Brazil. While commerical citrus belts are found only in some areas in the Gulf states, gardeners are growing citrus deep inland in the Gulf states and up the East Coast as far as South Carolina. I didn’t know that they grew sugarcane in North Carolina.
My main point is no way Sydney is New Orleans in climate types. New Orleans looks and feels semi-tropical - Sydney in like NYC or Seattle without the winter. The American Gulf states looks and feels like a real "subtropical climate"... with palm trees, citrus, snakes, gators, thunderstorms often in summer, sultury/humid/hot tropical type weather, tropical cyclones in the Gulf of Mexico often, - i.e it looks/feels like a real semi-tropical climate most of the year. Sydney on the other hand is NYC without winter or San Fran with warmer summers.
Last edited by Trade Wind; 11-16-2010 at 11:27 AM..
I think a town of Griffon, NSW is supposed to be big on citrus and averages 16/5 Cish (60/42 F) in their coldest month?
I think they have records at least as low as -5 C/23 F.
No Brisbane southward (toward the equator) into Queensland.
NSW is temperate to me. Brisbane and Queensland looks/feels subtropical like the Gulf coast and Florida.
My main point is no way Sydney is New Orleans in climate types. New Orleans looks and feels semi-tropical - Sydney in like NYC or Seattle without the winter.
South of Brisbane does not go towards the equator, it goes to the sub-Antarctic city of Melbourne.
Are you sure you're not thinking north?
Parts of the northern half of NSW are quite warm to me.
Bourke NSW is a very warm Outback town considering its latitude.
Anywhere from Taree-northward on the coast is noticeably milder/warmer than Sydney.
Byron Bay, NSW is basically the same climate as the Gold Coast, QLD imho.
No one else agrees with me,
but Sydney to me is like a humid version of San Diego for temperature patterns.
(lacking a defined winter or summer)
Wow, I didn’t know that. I always thought crocs were found down to just above Sydney? The last thing I am is a reptile expert (lol)…however, from what I’ve been told; Florida is becoming urbanized so fast they are losing habit faster…while southern Louisiana has massive uninhabited swamp lands/bayou areas - so it appears gators have more room to bread/age to large sizes. If you like that pic…you’ll love this one (caught last year near Franklin, LA after killing/eating a few small horses –lol). They claim (who really knows) it weighed 1000 lbs.
Regarding crocs and gators, these are some maps of where they naturally occur.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trade Wind
There is no way on earth Sydney is Humid Subtropical like New Orleans, Corpus, Savannah, Charleston..etc. We have family who lived in both NYC and Sydney - and describe their time in Sydney as NYC without the Nov to March months. They never mentioned Deep South style heat, humidity, thundery/convective storms, tropical cyclones, snakes, gators…etc. Yes, Brisbane feels humid subtropical, the land, the wildlife...etc. Sydney no way.
It also untrue that many temperate areas get just as hot in summer as places deep in the humid subtropics. Most areas in the East Asian humid subtropics (Fuzhou, Changsha, Shanghai, Osaka…ect) and the American humid subtropics (New Orleans, Corpus Christi, Mobile, Savannah, Charleston, Jackson, Gulfport…etc) have monthly mean temps in summer of 80 to 81 F (27/28 C)…higher than any temperate climate areas I know of.Most tropical climates also have summer (high sun) and annual mean temperatures of 77 to 83 F ( 25 – 28 C). Sydney’s mean annual temp of 20 C is so low, and it seems absurd to use any word with “tropical” in it. Just because Australia has cooler humid subtropical zones – doesn’t make it the standard for all zones. There is a distinct two season pattern to wind flow in the Gulf states in winter (northerly-contentinental) and summer deep sultury, hot, (southerly,easterly-tropical, mT air). It has as much to do with dew points in tropical zones as rainfall patterns. Seattle has two seasons of rainfall and it's far from tropical anything - lol.
The main point: In Australia, the only truly humid subtropical zone like New Orleans/Gulf Coast is Brisbane southward into Queensland.
As to citrus, I into citrus big time. I don’t what/where there is citrus grown in Australia, but Florida is the number 2 producer of oranges in the world (only Brazil produces more). In the USA the citrus zone extends from Florida through the Gulf Coast, then skips to southern Arizona, and then into California. They now even have belts extending into the rice and sugarcane belts of southern Georgia and coastal South Carolina. Collectively, the USA produces many times the citrus that Australia (maybe 5 times more) does.
If you include the arid climates than of course many areas in the temperate zone get far hotter - try Death Valley, for instance. Temp-wise many parts of the upper South get just as hot as the lower south/gulf - like I mentioned Kansas City, Missouri, already averages about 80F in July. This is even more so in parts of China.
In Australia citrus can be grown almost anywhere on the mainland at sea-level, because no area on the immediate coast is really prone to frost. It's also grown in many inland areas like Mildura and the Riverina.
Your idea of Sydney is based on second-hand accounts; I've been to Sydney in both winter and summer several times, and the landscape has a vague jungly feel to it. I already said gators are far more cold tolerant than crocs, the fact crocodiles only live in South Florida demonstrates that. And tropical style downpours, the occasional cyclone even, are all features of the climate as far south as Sydney. Yes maybe Sydney might just be warm temperate, but it also has a sub-tropical air about it.
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