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If Zone 8 is subtropical, much of France, almost all of the UK & Ireland, Denmark and the Netherlands would be subtropical.
I think txsizzler meant that in North America and east of the Rockies, zone 8 = subtropical.
There is nowhere in North America, east of the Rockies, in zone 8, with annual average highs less than 72 F/22 C.
(except perhaps in the Outer Banks of NC)
yup, too bad cause the last thing i feel like seeing is palm tree corpses everywhere. there is literally like 1 or more palm trees on every street where i live (sometimes alot more than one). its not just the palm trees, there are plenty of other tropical plants that probably won't survive the deep freeze.
Wow, why the defensive posturing? Anyhow, S. Florida gets hit with artic fronts as well, just moderated alot more due to the Atlantic and Gulf effects, whereas from Corpus Christi to Brownsville only gets the Gulf side. Most of the fronts that move down this way go down the east slopes of the Rockies, so a North/Northwest flow developes, which is completely landbased (continental) air. If S. Florida didn't have the Gulf to the west, they too would see the occasional 20-30 year occurance of teens for temps.
Also, the subtropical classification isn't "stretching" it at all for S. Texas. By your standards, you would have to say that Central America or Puerto Rico is subtropical then. In all actuality, even Dallas, TX. is in the "subtropical" classification, with occasional bouts of contintental airmasses in the winter. Also consider the Plant Hardiness Zone charts:
Starting from about Zone 8a is the beginnings of a "subtropical" classification. Even most of Florida, with the exception of far southern Florida is still under Zone 10, with Far South Florida being in Zone 10a (minimums of 30-35 degrees).
Ian
Sorry if I came off defensive. Didn't mean it.
I guess I have a more worldly view of sub-tropical vs. the North American version. I don't consider Charleston, SC sub-tropical either (they had like half of December and January with highs in the 40's). Almost every where else in the world, sub-tropical means winter highs at least in the upper 50's, and consistently above freezing in winter.
I think North American cold fronts push my view of sub-tropical down to central and south Florida in the east, and S. California and lowland AZ in the west. Texas just gets too severe of cold fronts to classify as sub-tropical. I don't care how warm they are for the other three seasons. If you get a winter blast that can routinely kill citrus, how in the world is that sub-tropical.
You would not see anywhere in the Med, or South America, Australia, or Asia with those kinds of record lows at such low latitudes or in what they consider sub-tropical zones. I don't think people consider Shanghai, China to be sub-tropical. At least I don't.
I think we've beaten this one a bit. We'll see how cold it actually gets on SPI, but blasts milder than this one killed off all the coco palms in Vero Beach a few years back. And right now it's still like 34 degrees in Brownsville. It's been in the 30's all day, and will be for the next few days. Unreal.
I guess I have a more worldly view of sub-tropical vs. the North American version. I don't consider Charleston, SC sub-tropical either (they had like half of December and January with highs in the 40's). Almost every where else in the world, sub-tropical means winter highs at least in the upper 50's, and consistently above freezing in winter.
I think North American cold fronts push my view of sub-tropical down to central and south Florida in the east, and S. California and lowland AZ in the west. Texas just gets too severe of cold fronts to classify as sub-tropical. I don't care how warm they are for the other three seasons. If you get a winter blast that can routinely kill citrus, how in the world is that sub-tropical.
You would not see anywhere in the Med, or South America, Australia, or Asia with those kinds of record lows at such low latitudes or in what they consider sub-tropical zones. I don't think people consider Shanghai, China to be sub-tropical. At least I don't.
I think we've beaten this one a bit. We'll see how cold it actually gets on SPI, but blasts milder than this one killed off all the coco palms in Vero Beach a few years back. And right now it's still like 34 degrees in Brownsville. It's been in the 30's all day, and will be for the next few days. Unreal.
We have beaten this to death…but I agree with txsizzler …subtropical classification isn't "stretching" it at all for S. Texas. True, south Texas is not a mild as south Florida, and south Florida doesn’t see the lower numbers that south Texas will when the severe cold snaps strike, but south Texas is easily a subtropical climate. It is a bit unfair to take a few days out of the year and use to as a way to classify a climate…and disregard the other 360 days on the year (lol). The winter monsoon in subtropical East Asia and the southern USA (from CA to SC)…allow for cold fronts to sweep down from the higher land areas of these countries once or twice a year and drop temps down into subtropical latitudes for a day or two before the front pushes off the mainland.
Also, it is a bit unfair to take this past Dec in cities like Phoenix, Corpus Christi, Charleston…etc and hold it up as normal or average temps for winter. Some of these cities saw their coldest December in 50 years. If you use upper 50’s as a definition of highs in subtropical climates…then everywhere from Central California… though the Desert Southwest…eastward through the coastal plain of the Gulf states to eastern South Carolina would be subtropical since they have normal December highs above 55 F.
As to temps in the 30’s /frosts …it is also untrue that locations in other parts of the world in subtropical latitudes (and even the northern margin of the tropics) have never seen temps in the 30’s. Places like Hanoi, Vietnam (36 F), Naples, Italy (24 F), New Delhi (30 F)…etc have seen temps in the 20’s and 30’s before. Should these areas not be considered subtropical/northern tropical?
Old Koppen said it best when someone noted that there have been days above 75 F above the Arctic Circle: The one or two day anomaly doesn’t determine the general climate of any region.
You would not see anywhere in the Med, or South America, Australia, or Asia with those kinds of record lows at such low latitudes or in what they consider sub-tropical zones. I don't think people consider Shanghai, China to be sub-tropical. At least I don't.
I remember there was quite some discussion about this and it's pretty much agreed that nowhere in the subtropical realm can rival the US subtropics (especially Texas) in terms of its record low being much larger than its average. Also just read a climate book written by Trewartha that stated this.
I think southern South America (ie. Argentina) might be a contender though. Santiago del Estero is a subtropical climate (36C/21C ~ 97F/70F in January, and 21C/7C ~ 70F/45F in July) with a record low of -7C or around 19F. At 27 latitude south, it's similar in distance as southern Texas to the equator. Not as impressive as Texas' record in the 10s F, but pretty decent as a contester for "continentality" (it's record high is 46 C or 115F too!).
I think they are similar in that there are both flat areas in interior of continents with little barriers to block cold air from the arctic/subarctic.
As to temps in the 30’s /frosts …it is also untrue that locations in other parts of the world in subtropical latitudes (and even the northern margin of the tropics) have never seen temps in the 30’s. Places like Hanoi, Vietnam (36 F), Naples, Italy (24 F), New Delhi (30 F)…etc have seen temps in the 20’s and 30’s before. Should these areas not be considered subtropical/northern tropical?
Not to detract from your point but those places' record lows still don't match Texas' impressive 10's.
I guess I have a more worldly view of sub-tropical vs. the North American version. I don't consider Charleston, SC sub-tropical either (they had like half of December and January with highs in the 40's). Almost every where else in the world, sub-tropical means winter highs at least in the upper 50's, and consistently above freezing in winter.
I think North American cold fronts push my view of sub-tropical down to central and south Florida in the east, and S. California and lowland AZ in the west. Texas just gets too severe of cold fronts to classify as sub-tropical. I don't care how warm they are for the other three seasons. If you get a winter blast that can routinely kill citrus, how in the world is that sub-tropical.
You would not see anywhere in the Med, or South America, Australia, or Asia with those kinds of record lows at such low latitudes or in what they consider sub-tropical zones. I don't think people consider Shanghai, China to be sub-tropical. At least I don't.
I think we've beaten this one a bit. We'll see how cold it actually gets on SPI, but blasts milder than this one killed off all the coco palms in Vero Beach a few years back. And right now it's still like 34 degrees in Brownsville. It's been in the 30's all day, and will be for the next few days. Unreal.
If frosts killing citrus means a climate isn't sub-tropical to you, then what do you consider tropical?
Generally I'd say "tropical" is where killing frosts can't happen, ever. But if I wanted to get really picky,
any place with a record low below 65 F/18 C shouldn't be "allowed" to call themselves tropical.
That would exclude most of Central America and the Caribbean.
But that's my honest opinion if tropical means "... it better feel tropical, always..."
Doesn't that pretty much limit it to equatorial climates?
I wonder what's been the highest record low recorded on earth.
Pretty much, and maybe climates near the boundaries of "equitorial."
70+ F/21+ C something at Kiribati?
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