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Charleston can be downright cold and dreary during the winter. I know over the past two winters there's been numerous days with highs only in the 30s and 40s. Whether it's in a continental climate or subtropical, I've always been enamored with the drastic changes in weather that can occur over the course of the year. Even the subtropical south with their very steady summers can't avoid wild temperature swings and cold winter weather.
Out of curiosity I looked up Charleston's record low maximums. Lowest high on record was 20 F on December 23, 1989. This in a place that struggles to fall below 75 F during the summer. Stunning!
Despite being told that extreme records don't make a climate, I ask anyone how in the world, at sea level btw, you can consider a place sub-tropical that has a high of 20F. When you drive on I-95 south to Florida in the winter, and you pass thru lowland SC, the trees are dead (the deciduous ones), and the grass is brown, and if it is cloudy it looks no different than a winter landscape in coastal NJ. It does not have any tropical feel at all in winter in my opinion. Any you certainly don't pass any citrus groves.
Despite being told that extreme records don't make a climate, I ask anyone how in the world, at sea level btw, you can consider a place sub-tropical that has a high of 20F. When you drive on I-95 south to Florida in the winter, and you pass thru lowland SC, the trees are dead (the deciduous ones), and the grass is brown, and if it is cloudy it looks no different than a winter landscape in coastal NJ. It does not have any tropical feel at all in winter in my opinion. Any you certainly don't pass any citrus groves.
The definition of subtropical is fairly broad and perhaps even subjective to a point. Places like Charleston definitely meet the criteria for being subtropical, but the winter extremes are very anomalous compared to other subtropical locations in the world (this just an assumption on my part, I could be wrong). In any case, experiencing a Minnesota-like winter day in coastal South Carolina is impressive.
Apples and oranges are a good analogy. We can grow oranges, they can't. It's also a good apple growing region here. Plants have to survive the winter before you can compare them. Heat requirement, while an important consideration isn't as significant as cold hardiness. I would think Charleston would have more climatic limitations than here.
I have a 2 year old Sabal Palmetto in my garden. These are meant to be very slow here due to low degree days, but it is growing faster than I would have thought. It is still a lot slower than most palms I have though.
It's true that they need to survive the winter first. On paper I should have no problem growing a Sabal Palmetto here as well as Live oaks and several other palm species but one just never sees them in the Vancouver area. We do have the same hardiness zone as parts of the Southern US that grows these things... I was told it was due to lack of heat here in the summer. Am I wrong? You seem to be a better gardening expert than I am. Perhaps you could shed more light. Our record lows are actually higher than Atlanta, Dallas and parts of Northern Florida.
The definition of subtropical is fairly broad and perhaps even subjective to a point. Places like Charleston definitely meet the criteria for being subtropical, but the winter extremes are very anomalous compared to other subtropical locations in the world (this just an assumption on my part, I could be wrong). In any case, experiencing a Minnesota-like winter day in coastal South Carolina is impressive.
It's interesting to read the travel blogs of Europeans that tour around places like Texas and the deep south in the winter. As per usual every winter the arctic blasts regularly hit the deep south and they are stunned. I'll bet places like Rome and Barcelona do not get hit with the arctic cold that hits the US South each winter. They just cannot believe places at such low latitude can get so cold, and for what can last for days. In most of the blogs I read it seems they don't consider it sub-tropical after spending some time there in winter.
Its close… but I would have to go with Charleston also if I were looking for a true “subtropical climate”.
Even though there is an even split in monthly mean temperatures (each climate is warmer than the other for half the year – though the annual mean temp in Charleston is slightly higher)…Newcastle would not feel very “subtropical” with such cool summers. The word subtropical…to me means a place with at least some of the aspects of the “tropics” part of the year…namely a warm hot season. The six warmest months in Charleston are close to 10 F warmer than the six warmest months in Newcastle. Also, not only is Charleston sunnier annually…but I’m think it’s sunnier than Newcastle in all seasons. Even the summer wet season in Charleston is more in keeping with the rhythm of the wet/dry season in the tropics/subtropics. As CC points out – summer in Charleston is very enjoyable for those who seek and hot, sunny beach climate, I have been there many times in summer and one is never “cold” because there is dependably hot, sunny weather, and warm sst.
As far as winter, Charleston city (as pointed out above by Tom above) averages closer to 27 days with frost, and I would guess that downtown/battery and the Islands have closer to 15 to 18 days with frost. This past winter and winter 2009 was much colder than normal. Although Charleston gets more cold shots than Newcastle in the cold season, winters are still pleasantly sunny and mild in Charleston in the cold season: December has an average high of 61 F…January an average high of 60 F…and Feb an average high of 63 F. It is not uncommon for Charleston to have 75 - 80 F daily highs in winter. Although we are coming to the end of winter in the Northern Hemisphere - of the 14 days so far this March, Charleston had highs above 20 C (68 F) on 10 of them (including 3 days between 75 and 81 F)…and it’s still winter in Charleston (lol).
As far as vegetation…I have been to Charleston many times. While the vegetation is not as “subtropical looking” as cities further south like St. Augustine, New Orleans, etc - Charleston still has its share of subtropical flora. Some years (again like the past two extreme winters) there will be some damage to palms and evergreens…but in most years Charleston is quite green in winter. I was just in St. Augustine a few weeks ago, and several of the same palms (though in lesser numbers) I saw growing in Charleston. Here are a few pics of the palms that grow in Charleston:
Canary Island Date Palms in the historic district:
Washingtonian Flifera (California Fan Palm) in downtown Charleston:
Sago's down at the Battery:
Sabal Palmetto on Chalmers Street in the old quarter:
Here are some WINTER pics of Charleston from members on the Southeast Palm society forum. They show just some of the grand gardens and courtyards in old town, and many of the different types of palms:
Although most palms want heat from what I understand…Charleston also has many of the cold temperate palms like Trachycarpus and European Fan palms that they grow in high latitude cooler areas like London, NYC, and Vancouver. One other note: A hurricane has not hit Charleston since 1989 (Hugo) …22 years ago.
It's true that they need to survive the winter first. On paper I should have no problem growing a Sabal Palmetto here as well as Live oaks and several other palm species but one just never sees them in the Vancouver area. We do have the same hardiness zone as parts of the Southern US that grows these things... I was told it was due to lack of heat here in the summer. Am I wrong? You seem to be a better gardening expert than I am. Perhaps you could shed more light. Our record lows are actually higher than Atlanta, Dallas and parts of Northern Florida.
Summer in Vancouver is similar to here, but spring and Autumn is where the difference is. Compare the last month of autumn and the first month of spring and you get, Vancouver- 3/8C and 3/10C vs here- 4/16C and 5/16C. While neither place has ideal summer heat, summer here, combined with warmer spring/autumn is still enough to give 6 months of active( but slow) growth for Sabal Palmetto. I have the same problem as you, but with other palm species.
Prolonged cold and damp are another problem some palms can have during the colder months, sometimes more so than absolute lows
Some of the palm forums, have people in BC (Salt Spring Island in particular comes to mind) really pushing the limits with palms and getting impressive results.
The pics of Charleston certainly look greener in the winter than I saw. Maybe I was just there in a bad winter. The grass growing all along the I-95 median was just as brown as in PA though. Maybe cause it was zoisa(sic?) grass, which turns brown after the first frost. And I didn't see any palms like those inland.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Originally Posted by ilovemycomputer90
The definition of subtropical is fairly broad and perhaps even subjective to a point. Places like Charleston definitely meet the criteria for being subtropical, but the winter extremes are very anomalous compared to other subtropical locations in the world (this just an assumption on my part, I could be wrong). In any case, experiencing a Minnesota-like winter day in coastal South Carolina is impressive.
I think the situation in North America is pretty unique, although there is a weaker parallel in South America. Namely, polar air can storm down into the lower latitudes with no mountains to block it. While the anticyclone over Siberia is much stronger and colder than North America, the fact the area is blocked by numerous mountains probably prevents places like Shanghai, on average colder than say Jacksonville, from getting even colder. If East Asia was as flat as the Midwest, Shanghai might be slightly colder but it's extreme lows might be even more extreme, about -20C or so.
Anyway, I think sub-tropical climate should refer more to the averages than the extremes. To me Miami is a tropical climate despite the fact it's got snow. Tropicality to me is not only to do with temps, because I consider places like Nairobi firmly tropical, but to do with wind/pressure systems and rainfall patterns.
It's interesting to read the travel blogs of Europeans that tour around places like Texas and the deep south in the winter. As per usual every winter the arctic blasts regularly hit the deep south and they are stunned. I'll bet places like Rome and Barcelona do not get hit with the arctic cold that hits the US South each winter. They just cannot believe places at such low latitude can get so cold, and for what can last for days. In most of the blogs I read it seems they don't consider it sub-tropical after spending some time there in winter.
Same here. I personally know some friends in central England that went to vacation in Orlando 2 Novembers ago and the week they went was when cold air was blowing in from the north and they had to go with 60s all week, when they were expecting what most people would expect, mid 70s to low 80s. Last time I went to Orlando during winter, I went in a normal year and experienced temps in the mid to high 70s. My fiancee is British and she's due to visit me this winter and I warned her that winters here in south-central PA can get cold like Sweden, and the week before I went home this past January, and the week after, it was blisteringly cold just like Stockholm was, even though my city sits right across the world from Madrid, Valencia, and Rome
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed
Same here. I personally know some friends in central England that went to vacation in Orlando 2 Novembers ago and the week they went was when cold air was blowing in from the north and they had to go with 60s all week, when they were expecting what most people would expect, mid 70s to low 80s. Last time I went to Orlando during winter, I went in a normal year and experienced temps in the mid to high 70s. My fiancee is British and she's due to visit me this winter and I warned her that winters here in south-central PA can get cold like Sweden, and the week before I went home this past January, and the week after, it was blisteringly cold just like Stockholm was, even though my city sits right across the world from Madrid, Valencia, and Rome
Yep, thank the Gulf Stream for that. Stockholm is about as cold as Chicago, and Bergen, Norway about the same as NYC.
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You seem to be a better gardening expert than I am. Perhaps you could shed more light. Our record lows are actually higher than Atlanta, Dallas and parts of Northern Florida.
