Rate the climate -- Buenos Aires, Argentina (icy, temperature, days)
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I think it's a fair comparison. What does that have to do with anything, the climates are on average similar. Myrtle Beach's average Jan low is around 3-4C, Buenos Aires is like 4-5C, not so dissimilar after all, are they? Buenos Aires seems definitely a bit colder than Sydney at a similar latitude (Observatory hill has never even recorded a frost!) with winter temps more typical of Melbourne and extremes that are lower. Buenos Aire's summers are also hotter than Sydney, with slightly warmer nights.
Have you ever spent a winter in the eastern half of the US? Average temps mean nothing in winter time here. The fact that Myrtle and Mobile have averages similar to Buenos Aires in winter means nothing if you actually experience the winter in those two US locations. Myrtle hits the avg or above for a few weeks, then as usual the temps will plummet. Myrtle has an avg high of let us say 60 in Feb. The reality is you will have upper 70's for a week or two, then you will have 40's for the next. The averages are meaningless in our winters. The std deviation in winter tells much more, along with the lowest, low temp recorded each winter. Buenos Aires would have, as Joe said, record breaking cold each winter if they exp a Myrtle winter. Not to pick a fight, but Wavehunter seems to minimize how cold the southern states of the eastern US can get in the winter. It can get brutally cold there compared to pretty much anywhere else in the world at such a low latitude. How can anyone say two climates are similar when record breaking cold in one city, is reached every single winter in the other location?
Not only that, but I think it is always wise to group climates (like Koppen did) based a great deal on their “genetic similarities”…not their extremes. As we all have discussed several times - many different climate zones, be then Boreal, tropical, desert…ect, all have some differences between them, but this is just the static of their genetics.
I remember something an old Australian climate professor who spent 40 years studying climate once told us: “The extremes of any climate, while important, should never determine the general climatic character of any region”. He then went on to tell us that there have been days when the daily highs have reached over 27 C (80 F) beyond the Arctic Circle – yet the rare warm day does hide the fact the Polar climates are cold climates.
I disagree. You keep acting as if these "extremes" are exactly that, and they are not. Bone chilling cold occurs every single winter in Charleston, Mobile, Savannah, etc. , and those cities exp winter temps all over the map, while more stable climates like Buenos Aires do not. Plop someone from Buenos Aires in South Carolina in winter and they would be floored. The climate of the eastern US needs it's own unique classification. How bout, cold/mild winters with hot summers? That is the reality. You can absolutely not be guaranteed any winter warmth or mildness in the southern US in winter.
I disagree. You keep acting as if these "extremes" are exactly that, and they are not. Bone chilling cold occurs every single winter in Charleston, Mobile, Savannah, etc. , and those cities exp winter temps all over the map, while more stable climates like Buenos Aires do not. Plop someone from Buenos Aires in South Carolina in winter and they would be floored. The climate of the eastern US needs it's own unique classification. How bout, cold/mild winters with hot summers? That is the reality. You can absolutely not be guaranteed any winter warmth or mildness in the southern US in winter.
I have to agree... the stats speak for themselves.
Charleston, SC
Average number of nights below freezing: 26.5 (can be much higher or lower depending on the year)
Average number of days below freezing: 0.2 (once every 5 years on average)
Record low: 6F
Mobile, AL
Average number of nights below freezing: 21.3 (can be much higher or lower depending on the year)
Average number of days below freezing: 0.3 (once every 3.3 years on average)
Record low: 3F
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Average number of nights below freezing: 14 (doesn't fluctuate much)
Average number of days below freezing: 0 (never occured in history of observation)
Record low: 22F (19F in suburbs)
So, it's clear that about every 3-5 years on average Mobile and Charleston get hit with subfreezing days whereas Buenos Aires has never had that in the history of observation. Also, snow happened in Buenos Aires in 2007 and before that in 1918 (89 years). I don't think Mobile or Charleston can claim that long of a time between snowfalls.
I think these things make winters between SC, AL and other similar locales in SE USA and Buenos Aires quite different.
I have to agree... the stats speak for themselves.
Charleston, SC
Average number of nights below freezing: 26.5 (can be much higher or lower depending on the year)
Average number of days below freezing: 0.2 (once every 5 years on average)
Record low: 6F
Mobile, AL
Average number of nights below freezing: 21.3 (can be much higher or lower depending on the year)
Average number of days below freezing: 0.3 (once every 3.3 years on average)
Record low: 3F
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Average number of nights below freezing: 14 (doesn't fluctuate much)
Average number of days below freezing: 0 (never occured in history of observation)
Record low: 22F (19F in suburbs)
So, it's clear that about every 3-5 years on average Mobile and Charleston get hit with subfreezing days whereas Buenos Aires has never had that in the history of observation. Also, snow happened in Buenos Aires in 2007 and before that in 1918 (89 years). I don't think Mobile or Charleston can claim that long of a time between snowfalls.
I think these things make winters between SC, AL and other similar locales in SE USA and Buenos Aires quite different.
You nailed it. You cannot compare BA with locations in the southern US and claim the same climate. Averages don't mean much in winter in the US as temps go all over the place and voila you get an average. As you pointed out, Charleston every three or so years has a high below freezing. I know we've beaten this before, but how in the world is that subtropical. I know you are not supposed to use extreme events to classify climate, but the thing is they are not extreme events as they occur every few years. That doesn't happen in BA. I think some people view the southern US as an escape from winter cold. I got burned before going there and never again. You have to go to the Carib to get the guaranteed warm weather. I think Wavehunter has a warm bias for SC.
Myrtle Beach and Mobile have colder winters and are more unstable than Buenos Aires, OK. But, as Trimac20 has pointed out, you shouldn't underestimate the "instability" of our climate here in BA. We get our share of unstable weather too. Of course in a lesser degree than SE USA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
The reality is you will have upper 70's for a week or two, then you will have 40's for the next.
This is not very different from what happens here in the Pampas in winter, although I've seen this tendency decreasing lately. (In the city of Buenos Aires we have the same but a bit less intense, instead of plummeting from upper 70s to 40s, we would have from lower 70s to 40s).
BTW, there's an extra factor you're leaving aside: According to Wikipedia, Myrtle Beach has 22,000 inhabitans and Mobile has 400,000. Buenos Aires has 13 million. Within the city limits, BA has 3 million. The data in Wikipedia about BA temps are about the city proper, which is, as expected, influenced by an important heat-island effect. If you go away from the center, you find lower temps.
About the instability issue, take the city of Córdoba (700 kms NW of BA). Avges for July are 18 C/ 4C (64 F/ 39 F). But the truth is that sometimes in winter the high will go to 28 or even to 30 C, and some other days, the highs will be 6 or 8 C.
As I said, SE USA may be one of the most unstable climates in the world, but in the Pampas maybe we are the second most unstable climate...
BTW, we said nothing about summers. Myrtle Beach and Mobile have hotter summers than BA.
Southeastern China gets cold winters as well. Even all the way down in Hong Kong, at 22N, there isn't "guaranteed warm weather" in the winter. By your standards, tom77falcons, SE China shouldn't have a subtropical climate either.
I think the essence of this constant battle is that what I'll call a continental subtropical climate has colder winters than what I'll call a maritime subtropical climate. Because of how the land on this planet is distributed, the main Cfa climates in the Northern Hemisphere (SE US and SE China) are influenced more by polar air masses, whereas the main Cfa climates in the Southern Hemisphere (South America, South Africa, and Australia) all have ocean weakening the effect of polar air masses. If Terra Australis existed, I see no reason why the Cfa climates that would exist on that continent's east coast wouldn't have continental influenced winters like SE China and SE US have.
If this distinction was noted, hopefully this constant back-and-forth about whether the SE US is subtropical would end.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Either way, averages make the climate, so Eastern Argentina and the Southeastern are of the same broad 'type' as each other, even if SE USA has more a more continental flavour. How many sub-categories do you want to divide them into? I don't think Koeppen etc is that accurate anyway because there's no way that New York City is remotely the same climate zone as Brisbane, Australia. We're talking about a city with winter snow with a city which has never had a frost, and not uncommonly sees sunny weather in the 80s in winter.
Myrtle Beach and Mobile have colder winters and are more unstable than Buenos Aires, OK. But, as Trimac20 has pointed out, you shouldn't underestimate the "instability" of our climate here in BA. We get our share of unstable weather too. Of course in a lesser degree than SE USA.
This is not very different from what happens here in the Pampas in winter, although I've seen this tendency decreasing lately. (In the city of Buenos Aires we have the same but a bit less intense, instead of plummeting from upper 70s to 40s, we would have from lower 70s to 40s).
BTW, there's an extra factor you're leaving aside: According to Wikipedia, Myrtle Beach has 22,000 inhabitans and Mobile has 400,000. Buenos Aires has 13 million. Within the city limits, BA has 3 million. The data in Wikipedia about BA temps are about the city proper, which is, as expected, influenced by an important heat-island effect. If you go away from the center, you find lower temps.
About the instability issue, take the city of Córdoba (700 kms NW of BA). Avges for July are 18 C/ 4C (64 F/ 39 F). But the truth is that sometimes in winter the high will go to 28 or even to 30 C, and some other days, the highs will be 6 or 8 C.
As I said, SE USA may be one of the most unstable climates in the world, but in the Pampas maybe we are the second most unstable climate...
BTW, we said nothing about summers. Myrtle Beach and Mobile have hotter summers than BA.
Cheers,
It’s interesting to hear the perspective of someone who has lived (or lives) in these locations. I think you add one more nail to the box of why Koppen termed these zones “subtropical”. There are bouts of cold - but they are fleeting…there are days when summers might be cool - but normally they are hot and humid…etc.
Another interesting aspect of this, is that one of the distinguishing features of the American Humid Subtropics is that despite having extreme lows lower than most of the other humid subtropical zones in winter – average winter temperatures themselves are relatively high, especially when compared with mainland subtropical East Asia; For example, Mobile, Al and Shanghai, China which are located on roughly the same latitude (31 N), have January mean monthly temperature of 52 F (11 C) and 38 F (3 C) respectively. The winter monsoon is much better developed in East Asia than in the Eastern USA.
Another issue that seems to be over stated is the issue of “unstableness”. Most subtropical locations of course have some semblance of changeable weather in the cold season (when the polar vortex is furthest south), but subtropical zones in general are genetically regions of high pressure (as opposed to say Temperate Oceanic climates that have frequent stormy low pressure). So while there is no doubt some changeable air mass control in winter, subtropical zones tend not to have the extreme changeable weather of the temperate latitudes.
To use the example above (TOM77FALCN above). Having a week of daily highs in the 70’s and then a week of daily highs in the 40’s in winter is a bit of an over statement.
If you look at the past five (5 years) of daily high temp data for February…of 28/29 days the daily high temps break down like this:
FEB 2011 (+0.7 F above Normal):
Days with highs in the 40’s: 4
Days with highs 60 to 80 F : 19
FEB 2010 (-7.9 F below Normal):
Days with highs in the 40’s: 5
Days with highs 60 to 80 F : 10
FEB 2009 (1.0 F above Normal):
Days with highs in the 40’s: 1
Days with highs 60 to 80 F : 23
FEB 2008 (2.1 F above Normal):
Days with highs in the 40’s: 0
Days with highs 60 to 80 F : 24
FEB 2007 (- 2.1 F below Normal):
Days with highs in the 40’s: 3
Days with highs 60 to 80 F : 18
While there is some swings in temps in the cold season (Dec/Jan/Feb) when the polar vortex/jet stream swings wildly north and south…daily high temps in a city like Mobile in winter are fairly stable and pleasant. In the month of February over the last five years (140 days)…only 13 times did the daily high fail to get out of the 40’s (4.5 to 9.5 C). It seemed to make no difference if it was a record cold month (Feb 2010) or a month a few degrees +/-...daily highs in the 40's seemed quite rare in Feb in Mobile. On the other hand, of 140 days, the daily high was from 60 (15. 5 C) to 80 F (26 C) on 94 days in Mobile…which is a rather pleasant outdoor temp to many people.
I don’t know how Buenos Aries would compare if we looked at 5 years worth of daily high temps in August temps, but given the genetics of subtropical climates, I would think similar conditions might occur.
Either way, averages make the climate, so Eastern Argentina and the Southeastern are of the same broad 'type' as each other, even if SE USA has more a more continental flavour. How many sub-categories do you want to divide them into? I don't think Koeppen etc is that accurate anyway because there's no way that New York City is remotely the same climate zone as Brisbane, Australia. We're talking about a city with winter snow with a city which has never had a frost, and not uncommonly sees sunny weather in the 80s in winter.
I agree 1000%.
That is why the orginal Koppen work (1899) was later revised with the more sensable Trewartha classification:
The pic is bad (from a text book), but you can see how NYC (Dca) and Brisbane (Cfa) were put in two different climate zones:
Most academics/climate scientists use the morden (1968) Trewartha (above) system today. Like all maps, the lines are imperfect, and any location near a line might fall on one side or the other of any climate type...but the concept is based more on climate gentics, which seem to make more sense.
However, Koppen is still considered the father of climate classification. I guess we sould still acknowledge his vision.
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That is the reality. You can absolutely not be guaranteed any winter warmth or mildness in the southern US in winter.
