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View Poll Results: What would Miami be classified as
Subtropical 5 29.41%
Tropical 12 70.59%
Other 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-14-2020, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,587,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cevven View Post
Yeah, I just looked that city up in Mexico. It's basically right below Brownsville, TX and it is classified as a tropical savanna climate by Koppen (Sw). Now, they do have a record low of 29, just 2 degrees above Miami. They are at zone 11B with zone 12 microclimates (minimum temperature 45 to 49 degrees) which you do find zone 11B in the tropics BUT usually at a higher elevations away from the sea but it's a whole zone higher than Miami on average. I haven't looked into just yet but Tampico may or may have the frequent lows in the 30's and lower 40s as Miami does. That being said, that place is said to be abnormality for a tropical zone (as you pointed out, Tampico is just right below the Tropic of Cancer line at 22.2*N). This is what I pulled up:

"In February 1895, snow was reported to have fallen in Tampico. This is the North American record for the furthest south report of snow at a coastal location, and makes Tampico one of the few places that snow has fallen in the tropics at sea level"

So it did snow there but that was in 1895. Plus, as Tampico is just south of the south TX border, so it can be somewhat subject to the continental influences due to the geography of North America (I read Rockies in the West tugs on the jet stream, causing it to many times deep extremely far down south in the winter) as well as the unstable, relatively weak polar vortex that supposed to stay put on the North Pole like the one in the South Pole does. Yes, Tampico does have lower temperatures in the winter than Miami WHEN It comes to the winter lows by a few degrees (59 as low in January in Tampico, 61 in Miami). I think because Tampico is a bit drier and less humid than Miami, and while they get some moderating effects from the ocean, it seems the Gulf Stream benefits South Florida a little more than Tampico in that regard. I still think Miami does experience more temperatures in the 40's and below than Tampico though as Tampico is actually in the tropics and get those more direct rays from the sun more than South Florida (You are right, from 2011 to 2019, Miami annual temperature minima was 40F and up BUT it got down to like 39 in January 2020, as they made a report of frozen "live" iguanas falling from trees in the area) .

Now can I say Tampico has a true tropical climate? Eh, not really. Now technically it's in the tropics for sure because of it's location (just barely in the tropics zone) while Miami is not in the tropics by location (it's north of the Tropic of Cancer at 25.7*N). I would still say both have a "transitional tropical climate" (transition from subtropical to tropical) which would be said to be a 'subtropical climate' technically - North America (Continental US, Canada, Northern Mexico) have very continental influences. I seen a map somewhere (when I find the map, I'll post here) saying South Florida having a "paratropical" climate versus a tropical or subtropical one. I seen that term for the first time when I seen that map.
Tampico isn't "just south" of the border, it is 300 miles south of Matamaros by car. That's the same as from St Augustine, FL to Miami going down I-95, US 1 or FL A1A (take your pick)
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Old 11-14-2020, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,587,616 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
Here is a record of cold in Tampico

1962: 34F
1983: 33F
1989: 28F
1997: 39F
2010: 38F
2011: 36F
2014: 39F
2018: 39F

11b? Key West is 11b not Tampico. Tampico a whole zone higher than Miami? hahaha. Both Tampico and Miami get into the 40s every winter. Miami averages an annual minimum of 43F for the last 30 years, how can Tampico be a whole zone higher? You are contradicting yourself.

Miami also has warmer average highs in January than Tampico (76F vs 73F) despite getting "less direct rays from the sun"

Whether or not you think Tampico is tropical for some arbitrary reason, Tampico and that area of lowland Tamaulipas is indistinguishable from neighboring Veracruz to the south. Same plants same animals same ecology. Same "tropical sun rays"

Also Tampico is 300 miles south of the Texas border. That is about the same distance as St. Augustine to Miami, quite significant.
You beat me to it, lol
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Old 11-14-2020, 08:39 AM
 
30,395 posts, read 21,215,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Tampico isn't "just south" of the border, it is 300 miles south of Matamaros by car. That's the same as from St Augustine, FL to Miami going down I-95, US 1 or FL A1A (take your pick)
No Coconuts in St Aug but will be within 10 years the way we keep heating up. They will be in GA on the coast within 60 years.
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Old 11-14-2020, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 198,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Tampico isn't "just south" of the border, it is 300 miles south of Matamaros by car. That's the same as from St Augustine, FL to Miami going down I-95, US 1 or FL A1A (take your pick)
Still, not too far. It's not super close to Texas border but not too far to have the same continental influence in the weather as South Texas does.
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Old 11-14-2020, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKJ1988 View Post
No Coconuts in St Aug but will be within 10 years the way we keep heating up. They will be in GA on the coast within 60 years.
At the rate the planet is heating up (methane bomb going off in the Arctic), we may not be here in 10 years, let alone 30 years. Climate change is no joke and we at the point of no return it seems.
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Old 11-14-2020, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 198,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
Here is a record of cold in Tampico

1962: 34F
1983: 33F
1989: 28F
1997: 39F
2010: 38F
2011: 36F
2014: 39F
2018: 39F

11b? Key West is 11b not Tampico. Tampico a whole zone higher than Miami? hahaha. Both Tampico and Miami get into the 40s every winter. Miami averages an annual minimum of 43F for the last 30 years, how can Tampico be a whole zone higher? You are contradicting yourself.

Miami also has warmer average highs in January than Tampico (76F vs 73F) despite getting "less direct rays from the sun"

Whether or not you think Tampico is tropical for some arbitrary reason, Tampico and that area of lowland Tamaulipas is indistinguishable from neighboring Veracruz to the south. Same plants same animals same ecology. Same "tropical sun rays"

Also Tampico is 300 miles south of the Texas border. That is about the same distance as St. Augustine to Miami, quite significant.
Tampico IS classified in zone 11B, and this is not my opinion, this is fact. Just because it gotten below 40 degrees before doesn't mean it's not in zone 11B. They go by large number of years and average up the lowest temperature reaches in those years to determine what zone a given location is. For example, I live in Raleigh, which they recently categorized as Zone 8A officially - which means average annual temperature minima is between 10F to 15F BUT we gotten down below 10F a couple times in the 2010's. However, when they compiled the averages, we still got the 8A classification (from 7B in previous maps).

Also I know that Tampico is a few hundred miles south of the Texas border but my point is still close enough to experience the continental influences that occur in South Texas which make it subject to the occasional arctic blast that comes from the Canada. Same goes for Miami.

But get down to the point, it seems like you guys WANT to be Miami to be tropical, and it's not, at least not "true" tropical in climate. I would apply the same to Tampico even them being geographically in the Tropics. I say that Miami has a "Transitional Tropical Climate" or MAYBE at best a "Tropical Climate with Continental Influences", which there is no official classification for either. I already said in previously multiple times that Miami does have some significant tropical qualities in it's climate and vegetation but not like it is in the TRUE tropics. The climate of Miami, while generally warm year round, does NOT compare to TRUE tropical climates in places like Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Cancun, Belize, Southeast Asia, or Brazil in 'tropicalness', same goes for Tampico. Tampico and that area is seen as extreme abnormality in the tropics anyway, the vast majority of tropical areas at sea level never get that cold. Anyway, if you guys want to say Miami is pure, TRUE tropical, then go right ahead.
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Old 11-14-2020, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Etobicoke
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I would say Miami is on the same level as Asuncion in terms of tropicalness.
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Old 11-14-2020, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 198,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
I would say Miami is on the same level as Asuncion in terms of tropicalness.
Yeah, I think that's a great one. I checked their average temperatures, they are fairly close, with Asuncion being a little cooler in the winter, especially at night. Under Koppen, Asunción is classified as having "a humid subtropical climate that closely borders on a tropical savanna climate". I said that Miami has a "transitional tropical climate" which is similar to that Koppen definition. Miami does have a significant number of tropical features in it's climate and vegetation but not full-on true tropical. I do want to travel there (Asuncion), though, looks like a nice place to visit. I have yet to travel to South America but never went...
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Old 11-15-2020, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,539,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cevven View Post
Tampico IS classified in zone 11B, and this is not my opinion, this is fact. Just because it gotten below 40 degrees before doesn't mean it's not in zone 11B. They go by large number of years and average up the lowest temperature reaches in those years to determine what zone a given location is. For example, I live in Raleigh, which they recently categorized as Zone 8A officially - which means average annual temperature minima is between 10F to 15F BUT we gotten down below 10F a couple times in the 2010's. However, when they compiled the averages, we still got the 8A classification (from 7B in previous maps).

Also I know that Tampico is a few hundred miles south of the Texas border but my point is still close enough to experience the continental influences that occur in South Texas which make it subject to the occasional arctic blast that comes from the Canada. Same goes for Miami.

But get down to the point, it seems like you guys WANT to be Miami to be tropical, and it's not, at least not "true" tropical in climate. I would apply the same to Tampico even them being geographically in the Tropics. I say that Miami has a "Transitional Tropical Climate" or MAYBE at best a "Tropical Climate with Continental Influences", which there is no official classification for either. I already said in previously multiple times that Miami does have some significant tropical qualities in it's climate and vegetation but not like it is in the TRUE tropics. The climate of Miami, while generally warm year round, does NOT compare to TRUE tropical climates in places like Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Cancun, Belize, Southeast Asia, or Brazil in 'tropicalness', same goes for Tampico. Tampico and that area is seen as extreme abnormality in the tropics anyway, the vast majority of tropical areas at sea level never get that cold. Anyway, if you guys want to say Miami is pure, TRUE tropical, then go right ahead.
Do you have any data to suggest that Tampico is zone 11B? None of the maps on "the internet" place Tampico in 11b but rather 10b/11a.

You're hung up on the idea that the "true tropics" are immune to polar influence.

Townsville, Australia at 19.25*S got down to 45F (-12F departure from average) just this past July.

Havana, Cuba also fell to 39F (-25F) in 2010 during the same cold front that impacted South Florida. Cancun, Mexico recorded 50F (-18F). Mazatlan at 23.2*N on the Pacific coast of Mexico recorded 38F (-21F) in 2011 and agriculture was devastated: https://www.reuters.com/article/mexi...28197020110228.

Bangkok, Thailand at 13.75*N recorded 61F (-12F) in January of 2016.

Puerto Maldonado at 12.6*S in the Peruvian Amazon recorded 48F (-14F) and neighboring parts of Acre, Brazil recorded as low as 45F in 2010. Iquitos (capital of the Peruvian Amazon) at 3.74*S recorded 57F (-12F). Santa Cruz in the Bolivian Amazon at 17.8*S and only 1,300 ft elevation recorded 39F. It was cold enough to cause mass fish kills https://www.nature.com/news/2010/100....2010.437.html



"Maybe the most notable fact took place in North South America. The cold reached Amazon
and temperatures felt to as low as 7ºC in towns in the Amazon Forest in the states of Acre
and Rondonia. Temperature even felt in Roraima, where the state capital Boa Vista record
20C (normal lows are 25C) and the wind were blowing from the South. Boa Vista is located
at 2º North of latitude, so the influence of the Antarctic cold blast crossed the Equator
line and reached towns in the Northern Hemisphere. It would be the same of a cold snap
from the Arctic crossing the entire North America continent, the Caribbean and reaching
North Brazil in cities at 2º South of latitude as Santarem, a bizarre situation. "
http://klimarealistene.com/HISTORICA...UTHAMERICA.pdf


On the opposite end of things, you can't find a "subtropical" climate in the northern hemisphere that has recorded 70F or above as a January mean temperature like Miami has 6 out of the last 20 Januarys. Asuncion does not even make the 64.4F Koppen cutoff for tropical....Miami averages 68F mean temp in January! A brief cold front doesn't change that fact or the fact that Miami is largely dominated by tropical airflow even in winter.

Last edited by Asagi; 11-15-2020 at 08:04 AM..
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Old 11-15-2020, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,587,616 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
Do you have any data to suggest that Tampico is zone 11B? None of the maps on "the internet" place Tampico in 11b but rather 10b/11a.

You're hung up on the idea that the "true tropics" are immune to polar influence.

Townsville, Australia at 19.25*S got down to 45F (-12F departure from average) just this past July.

Havana, Cuba also fell to 39F (-25F) in 2010 during the same cold front that impacted South Florida. Cancun, Mexico recorded 50F (-18F). Mazatlan at 23.2*N on the Pacific coast of Mexico recorded 38F (-21F) in 2011 and agriculture was devastated: https://www.reuters.com/article/mexi...28197020110228.

Bangkok, Thailand at 13.75*N recorded 61F (-12F) in January of 2016.

Puerto Maldonado at 12.6*S in the Peruvian Amazon recorded 48F (-14F) and neighboring parts of Acre, Brazil recorded as low as 45F in 2010. Iquitos (capital of the Peruvian Amazon) at 3.74*S recorded 57F (-12F). Santa Cruz in the Bolivian Amazon at 17.8*S and only 1,300 ft elevation recorded 39F. It was cold enough to cause mass fish kills https://www.nature.com/news/2010/100....2010.437.html



"Maybe the most notable fact took place in North South America. The cold reached Amazon
and temperatures felt to as low as 7ºC in towns in the Amazon Forest in the states of Acre
and Rondonia. Temperature even felt in Roraima, where the state capital Boa Vista record
20C (normal lows are 25C) and the wind were blowing from the South. Boa Vista is located
at 2º North of latitude, so the influence of the Antarctic cold blast crossed the Equator
line and reached towns in the Northern Hemisphere. It would be the same of a cold snap
from the Arctic crossing the entire North America continent, the Caribbean and reaching
North Brazil in cities at 2º South of latitude as Santarem, a bizarre situation. "
http://klimarealistene.com/HISTORICA...UTHAMERICA.pdf


On the opposite end of things, you can't find a "subtropical" climate in the northern hemisphere that has recorded 70F or above as a January mean temperature like Miami has 6 out of the last 20 Januarys. Asuncion does not even make the 64.4F Koppen cutoff for tropical....Miami averages 68F mean temp in January! A brief cold front doesn't change that fact or the fact that Miami is largely dominated by tropical airflow even in winter.
I honestly think too many people think Tropical means like Singapore or one of those Pacific Atoll's where the record low is like 20 to 21°C
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