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View Poll Results: What would Miami be classified as
Subtropical 5 29.41%
Tropical 12 70.59%
Other 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-29-2020, 05:00 PM
 
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Puerto Vallarta is a weird place: very warm almost every year for so long. When La Nina comes: nights in Puerta Vallarta are cold: 40's and 50's. https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l...7c4d841f670504 Otherwise nights are in the mid to upper 60's during none La Nina, period, making it seems like it never gets cold there!!!
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,696,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
Disqualifying a sea level place at 17.52°S backed by actual tropical rainforest, where ultra-tropical crops such as cacao, durian, breadfruit etc grow would indicate to me that your limits are too tight.
All classifications have this issue, with the suitability of plant species having essentially no input into classification. This creates a system which can place an oceanic banana producing climate alongside an oceanic climate seeing 50 days of snow a year, and a annual mean of 8C - as odd as it sounds, it captures a single defining truth about both oceanic climates, that they are heavily temperature moderated in all seasons

I agree that 1C is just too cold for a tropical climate at sea level. A defining truth about tropical climates(imo), is that they should never drop close to freezing at sea level - that sort of abnormally is what the subtropical classification should cover.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:32 PM
 
1,228 posts, read 725,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
Seems both arbitrary and not corresponding to much in the world of natural science, but instead to one's own personal feelings.

Your criteria 1 would disqualify Townsville as the average lows fall below this in in all three winter months. The BOM doesn't give an annual mean minimum temperature, but given the decile 1 minimum temperature is 8.8C (47.8F) it seems highly likely that the annual mean minimum is below 45F. Yet Townsville is almost universally regarded as a tropical city.

Even Innisfail has a July average low of 15.2C (59.4F) and an Aug low of 15.4C (59.7F), though it would qualify by all other criteria.

Disqualifying a sea level place at 17.52°S backed by actual tropical rainforest, where ultra-tropical crops such as cacao, durian, breadfruit etc grow would indicate to me that your limits are too tight.
Middle Point ( in Darwin's Rural Area ) 12.6*S and 14m asl has the the winter months mean minimums as
June 15.3c ( 59.5f )
July 14.4c ( 58.0 f )
Aug 14.8c ( 58.6f )
So a site slightly inland from the warm waters of the Arafura Sea, at low altitude 14m ( 46' asl ) with a winter mean min of 14.8c ( 58.6f ). Historical lows below 5c ( 41f )
This is a very tropical place that benefits greatly from being in the Adelaide River Valley with the cooler dry season nights.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:37 PM
 
30,459 posts, read 21,298,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by high tower View Post
Even Jamaica feels freezing when a strong cold front slams into them, though the temperatures still say 70 degrees due to warm waters around the place. It's still coooold!!!!!!!! Especially during the mid day.
That is kinda south for any real front.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,543,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post

I agree that 1C is just too cold for a tropical climate at sea level. A defining truth about tropical climates(imo), is that they should never drop close to freezing at sea level - that sort of abnormally is what the subtropical classification should cover.
There is no subtropical climate where the lowest monthly mean temperature is 20C like Miami. That is warmer than the warmest month in Auckland lol. Ultratropical plants like breadfruit and cacao grow to tree size and bear fruit in Miami until the odd freeze/near freeze kills or damages them every few decades.

Miami gets nil/zero chill hours because any kind of brief chilling is cancelled out by the inevitable return to 80 degree weather. The city does average 20C in January after all. Twenty degrees Celsius. Last January had an average of 22C
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,696,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
There is no subtropical climate where the lowest monthly mean temperature is 20C like Miami. That is warmer than the warmest month in Auckland lol. Ultratropical plants like breadfruit and cacao grow to tree size and bear fruit in Miami until the odd freeze/near freeze kills or damages them every few decades.

Miami gets nil/zero chill hours because any kind of brief chilling is cancelled out by the inevitable return to 80 degree weather. The city does average 20C in January after all. Twenty degrees Celsius. Last January had an average of 22C
The fact remains that it has an annual extreme minimumof 4.5C, at sea level.

Plants mean nothing to classifications. The sub part of subtropical should describe a climate that can be almost tropical, but not quite.
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Old 11-29-2020, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,543,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
The fact remains that it has an annual extreme minimumof 4.5C, at sea level.

Plants mean nothing to classifications. The sub part of subtropical should describe a climate that can be almost tropical, but not quite.
What part of 20C lowest monthly mean temperature isn't tropical? Miami has higher average diurnal variation than average seasonal variation. Miami has a wet and dry season where seasonal variation is marked more by rainfall than temperature. A brief freeze every few decades does not change the overall tropical weather pattern of Miami; this feature is not exclusive to Florida either and also occurs in tropical Mexico. Like the many ignored posts in this thread have said: not every tropical climate sits on the equator next to a warm sea immune to all cold a la Singapore.
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,696,173 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
What part of 20C lowest monthly mean temperature isn't tropical? Miami has higher average diurnal variation than average seasonal variation. Miami has a wet and dry season where seasonal variation is marked more by rainfall than temperature. A brief freeze every few decades does not change the overall tropical weather pattern of Miami; this feature is not exclusive to Florida either and also occurs in tropical Mexico. Like the many ignored posts in this thread have said: not every tropical climate sits on the equator next to a warm sea immune to all cold a la Singapore.
It's certainly a warm climate , but three months dropping below 8C on average, and 4 months that have recorded freezing sea level temperatures at some stage, just represent too big of a departure to be tropical, imo - makes more sense to include it as subtropical, as it's a better umbrella for understanding warm climates that can occasionally get temperatures representaive of Cfb climates, rather than diluting tropical climates to being climates that can see freezing temperatures at sea level.

My own Oceanic climate has a greater diurnal range than seasonal range, so I wouldn't place too much emphasis on that as an indicator of tropical-ness
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,616 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
All classifications have this issue, with the suitability of plant species having essentially no input into classification. This creates a system which can place an oceanic banana producing climate alongside an oceanic climate seeing 50 days of snow a year, and a annual mean of 8C - as odd as it sounds, it captures a single defining truth about both oceanic climates, that they are heavily temperature moderated in all seasons

I agree that 1C is just too cold for a tropical climate at sea level. A defining truth about tropical climates(imo), is that they should never drop close to freezing at sea level - that sort of abnormally is what the subtropical classification should cover.
Thank you! Good looking convincing many of these guy this, though. I guess because Miami is seen as the tropical winter getaway and when you threaten their perception of it, they get defensive.

Last edited by cevven; 11-29-2020 at 09:46 PM..
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,616 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
It's certainly a warm climate , but three months dropping below 8C on average, and 4 months that have recorded freezing sea level temperatures at some stage, just represent too big of a departure to be tropical, imo - makes more sense to include it as subtropical, as it's a better umbrella for understanding warm climates that can occasionally get temperatures representaive of Cfb climates, rather than diluting tropical climates to being climates that can see freezing temperatures at sea level.

My own Oceanic climate has a greater diurnal range than seasonal range, so I wouldn't place too much emphasis on that as an indicator of tropical-ness
Facts. This is one of the problems with the Koppen system BUT Koppen was doing work at the time when we had less to go by. However, we got way more data and way more technology to be able to have more accurate climate classifications.

Miami has hit freezing at sea level TOO many times as a 'tropical climate' EVEN though it hasn't happened in many years. It's not to say it will happen in the near future.
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