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View Poll Results: What would Miami be classified as
Subtropical 5 29.41%
Tropical 12 70.59%
Other 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-29-2020, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,158 times
Reputation: 149

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKJ1988 View Post
I would say we will still get a few cold shots in Miami before it warms for good in the next 30 years. But it sure has changed the last 30 years from the super freezes of the 1980's as we have never been close since 1990. Coconuts got burned well down south on the west coast of FL back in 1981 thru 1983 when Tampa had lows of 19 to 24f year after year. I count Cuba as tropical but maybe they have seen a 49f or below also one or two times.
Yup. And those figures are just the lowest it reached that year, it could of reached freezing MULTIPLE times those years. Plus even nowadays South Florida OFTEN has lows in the 40s every year. While Miami gets it share of heat even for it's latitude, it gets a lot of arctic cold snaps for their latitude as well.
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Old 11-29-2020, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,158 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
You're being too nitpicky about it. Not everywhere in the lowland tropics is going to be like Oranjestad or Barranquilla. Those are equatorial climates. The 18°C+ mean all months is enough
Na bro, my classifications ARE very generous dude.
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,540,954 times
Reputation: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
It's certainly a warm climate , but three months dropping below 8C on average, and 4 months that have recorded freezing sea level temperatures at some stage, just represent too big of a departure to be tropical, imo - makes more sense to include it as subtropical, as it's a better umbrella for understanding warm climates that can occasionally get temperatures representaive of Cfb climates, rather than diluting tropical climates to being climates that can see freezing temperatures at sea level.

My own Oceanic climate has a greater diurnal range than seasonal range, so I wouldn't place too much emphasis on that as an indicator of tropical-ness
It works both ways, you would be diluting Cfa climates as well. There is no Cfa climate that averages 20C in its coldest month. It's way too warm to be Cfa. It just represents "too big of a departure to be subtropical, imo".

You put a lot of emphasis on being "frost-free" and oceanic bananas but why no mention of tropical things that actually require heat? I doubt you get enough heat to even grow a palatable grapefruit. There are no coconuts in even the frost free parts of New Zealand and it definitely isn't remotely warm enough to sustain the metabolism of a crocodile or an anaconda. Tropical climates are dominated by warmth, and Miami is largely dominated by warmth during the winter. Cold is the exception and not the rule. Miami hasn't seen a freeze in 30 years.
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Old 11-30-2020, 05:25 AM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,158 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
The criteria are just laughable and exclude many bona fide tropical climates

Rule 1 excludes Sinaloa, Chiang Mai, Luang Prabang, Kolkata, Bangladesh, southern Mozambique, southern Madagascar

Rule 4 excludes Hilo, Reunion Island, Tonga, New Caledonia, and many low-mid elevation locales like Bandung, San Jose (Costa Rica), Belo Horizonte and Medellin
Well, I guess those places ain't tropical either. Thanks for pointing it out
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Old 11-30-2020, 06:42 AM
 
1,503 posts, read 914,311 times
Reputation: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
The fact remains that it has an annual extreme minimumof 4.5C, at sea level.

Plants mean nothing to classifications. The sub part of subtropical should describe a climate that can be almost tropical, but not quite.
Um, no. "Traditionally, vegetation has been considered as a passive component of climate (e.g. Köppen 1936 who considers vegetation as ‘crystallized, visible climate’). Claussen, M. (1998), On multiple solutions of the atmosphere–vegetation system in present‐day climate. Global Change Biology, 4: 549-559. https://doi.org/10.1046/j.1365-2486.1998.t01-1-00122.x

Köppen's attempts were pretty crude, but his principle was sound. There was much less climate data in those days, plus understanding of ecology was fairly primitive. Later attempts such as Ashmann's attempts to define a mediterranean scrub climate were more sophisticated. For example instead of using a crude mean temperature of the coldest month or months, he used percentage of annual hours below freezing. Instead of applying a threshold of one month with less than a certain amount of rainfall, he calculated monthly moisture indices based on temperature and rainfall.

Innisifail has the tropical rainforest of Wooroonooran national park just inland from it, it's a fantastic place and incredibly beautiful. If vegetation is "crystallized, visible climate" this alone is very strong evidence for a tropical (rainforest) climate over long periods of time (thousands to hundreds of thousands of years).

Even cultivated plants can tell you a lot, if you know what conditions they need. Eg somewhere like Innisfail or Cairns you'll see plenty of ultra-tropicals such as Cyrtostachys renda growing without a lot of special care or luck, eg in streetside landscaping. That will tell you that not only is the climate tropical, but that temperatures below about 7-10C are rare to absent, no more than a very small percentage of annual hours.
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Old 11-30-2020, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,540,954 times
Reputation: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by cevven View Post
Well, I guess those places ain't tropical either. Thanks for pointing it out
So I guess all of those areas that are zone 12 and zone 13 with tropical sun angles and record lows in the 40s and 50s aren't tropical hahaha. Definitely dug yourself a hole
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:00 AM
 
1,503 posts, read 914,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
So I guess all of those areas that are zone 12 and zone 13 with tropical sun angles and record lows in the 40s and 50s aren't tropical hahaha. Definitely dug yourself a hole
I think he's confused equatorial (a subset of tropical) with tropical. But even those criteria wouldn't be good for limiting equatorial climates as some would be too loose.
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,601,062 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by cevven View Post
Na bro, my classifications ARE very generous dude.
No, you've pretty much established you think only equatorial climates are tropical. And no way is Miami subtropical, as that would put it in the same cliamte group as Washington DC and Tulsa, OK. And anyone can tell you that Miami is a completely different climate than those two altogether
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:41 AM
 
1,503 posts, read 914,311 times
Reputation: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by greysrigging View Post
Middle Point ( in Darwin's Rural Area ) 12.6*S and 14m asl has the the winter months mean minimums as
June 15.3c ( 59.5f )
July 14.4c ( 58.0 f )
Aug 14.8c ( 58.6f )
So a site slightly inland from the warm waters of the Arafura Sea, at low altitude 14m ( 46' asl ) with a winter mean min of 14.8c ( 58.6f ). Historical lows below 5c ( 41f )
This is a very tropical place that benefits greatly from being in the Adelaide River Valley with the cooler dry season nights.
Interesting. There's a commercial durian farm near there. It's even been in the news. Durian is very much an equatorial crop, so it being grown commercially (not just say the odd stunted tree grown for a few years by someone as a novelty) must show the area is easily tropical.

Durian season smelling great as Australia's largest farm gives Perth a whiff - ABC
News

Tropical Primary Products, 110 Miniata Rd, Lambells Lagoon, NT 0822 - map
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Old 11-30-2020, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,671,761 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
It works both ways, you would be diluting Cfa climates as well. There is no Cfa climate that averages 20C in its coldest month. It's way too warm to be Cfa. It just represents "too big of a departure to be subtropical, imo".

You put a lot of emphasis on being "frost-free" and oceanic bananas but why no mention of tropical things that actually require heat? I doubt you get enough heat to even grow a palatable grapefruit. There are no coconuts in even the frost free parts of New Zealand and it definitely isn't remotely warm enough to sustain the metabolism of a crocodile or an anaconda. Tropical climates are dominated by warmth, and Miami is largely dominated by warmth during the winter. Cold is the exception and not the rule. Miami hasn't seen a freeze in 30 years.
Cfa climates aren't diluted, because they represent all the climates between cool, and perpetually warm.

20C just means that Miami is at the top end of the Cfa scale. It's different to tropical climates because it is a strong seasonal climate that can get a freeze at sea level on rare occasions, and annually gets temperatures at sea level that really just make a mockery of the notion of perpetual warmth.

NZ is a completely different argument - despite hosting completely different vegetation to the majority of Oceanic climates, it is solidly Oceanic because it has the single most important qualitative feature that defines them (imo),of being heavily temperature moderated in all seasons. The qualitative feature that tropical climates have, would exclude annual temperatures as low as 6C at sea level, and certainly no freezes at sea level.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
Um, no. "Traditionally, vegetation has been considered as a passive component of climate (e.g. Köppen 1936 who considers vegetation as ‘crystallized, visible climate’). Claussen, M. (1998), On multiple solutions of the atmosphere–vegetation system in present‐day climate. Global Change Biology, 4: 549-559. https://doi.org/10.1046/j.1365-2486.1998.t01-1-00122.x

Köppen's attempts were pretty crude, but his principle was sound. There was much less climate data in those days, plus understanding of ecology was fairly primitive. Later attempts such as Ashmann's attempts to define a mediterranean scrub climate were more sophisticated. For example instead of using a crude mean temperature of the coldest month or months, he used percentage of annual hours below freezing. Instead of applying a threshold of one month with less than a certain amount of rainfall, he calculated monthly moisture indices based on temperature and rainfall.

Innisifail has the tropical rainforest of Wooroonooran national park just inland from it, it's a fantastic place and incredibly beautiful. If vegetation is "crystallized, visible climate" this alone is very strong evidence for a tropical (rainforest) climate over long periods of time (thousands to hundreds of thousands of years).

Even cultivated plants can tell you a lot, if you know what conditions they need. Eg somewhere like Innisfail or Cairns you'll see plenty of ultra-tropicals such as Cyrtostachys renda growing without a lot of special care or luck, eg in streetside landscaping. That will tell you that not only is the climate tropical, but that temperatures below about 7-10C are rare to absent, no more than a very small percentage of annual hours.
Vegetation just proves how pointless classification actually is- where are the avocado orchards of the Netherlands, or how long do the jacarandas bloom in Belfast?

Classification is artificial, and can not be used to understand the natural world. The only logical way to"determine" classification, isn't quantitive, but qualitative. Bottom line is that tropical climates just do not do freezes at sea level.
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