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View Poll Results: What would Miami be classified as
Subtropical 5 29.41%
Tropical 12 70.59%
Other 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-30-2020, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,541,288 times
Reputation: 835

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Cfa climates aren't diluted, because they represent all the climates between cool, and perpetually warm.

20C just means that Miami is at the top end of the Cfa scale. It's different to tropical climates because it is a strong seasonal climate that can get a freeze at sea level on rare occasions, and annually gets temperatures at sea level that really just make a mockery of the notion of perpetual warmth.
So you want to move the isotherm to 20C? That would exclude Townsville and many other tropical climates that make the 18C cut.

Cold in tropical climates is not exclusive to Miami either. Near sea level and low elevation (<500 m) areas in the northern parts of Thailand, Laos, and Myanmar have seen near freezing and freezing temperatures (-1 to 2C) before. The same has also occurred in Mexico down to about the 20th parallel. Cold has also penetrated the western Amazon deep into Bolivia, Peru, and Brazil. But by and large, all of these climates are still dominated by warmth.
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Old 11-30-2020, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,541,288 times
Reputation: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Cfa climates aren't diluted, because they represent all the climates between cool, and perpetually warm.

20C just means that Miami is at the top end of the Cfa scale. It's different to tropical climates because it is a strong seasonal climate that can get a freeze at sea level on rare occasions, and annually gets temperatures at sea level that really just make a mockery of the notion of perpetual warmth.

NZ is a completely different argument - despite hosting completely different vegetation to the majority of Oceanic climates, it is solidly Oceanic because it has the single most important qualitative feature that defines them (imo),of being heavily temperature moderated in all seasons. The qualitative feature that tropical climates have, would exclude annual temperatures as low as 6C at sea level, and certainly no freezes at sea level.
So to entertain your argument, we should disqualify New Zealand from the oceanic category because of a 35C heatwave?

Should we base Miami's climate classification entirely on the two days of the year where it gets cold?
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Old 11-30-2020, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Etobicoke
1,546 posts, read 871,176 times
Reputation: 993
My personal cut would be whether the location has recorded a temperature below 0 C to be subtropical.
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Old 11-30-2020, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,604,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
My personal cut would be whether the location has recorded a temperature below 0 C to be subtropical.
A longterm mean is more important than a one off extreme
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Old 11-30-2020, 11:42 AM
 
1,503 posts, read 914,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Vegetation just proves how pointless classification actually is- where are the avocado orchards of the Netherlands, or how long do the jacarandas bloom in Belfast?
Well that goes against traditional scientific thinking, which Koppen summed up in his "crystallized, visible climate" comment. Really the link between vegetation/biome and climate well established and uncontroversial.

I think you're quite mixed up. All it shows is that a) avocados and jacarandas have quite a wide climate tolerance towards the warmer end of the climate spectrum b) Koppen's system is crude and doesn't distinguish well between warm and cool "oceanic" climates , and c) you happen to live in one of the coolest "oceanic" climates that can grow avocados.

If you choose something that has stricter and more appropriate requirements, it works better. For example the durians and sealing wax palms I mentioned before would well distinguish a climate that rarely if ever falls below about 7-10C and thus is definitely tropical.
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Old 11-30-2020, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,251 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
No, you've pretty much established you think only equatorial climates are tropical. And no way is Miami subtropical, as that would put it in the same cliamte group as Washington DC and Tulsa, OK. And anyone can tell you that Miami is a completely different climate than those two altogether
They wouldn't be in the same climate zone and you know why? Washington, DC and Tulsa, OK are NOT subtropical, they get way too cold on average in the winter and DC especially gets too much frozen precipitation. Those cities are classified WRONG under the Koppen system. A true subtropical climate will be somewhere like Orlando, Jacksonville, maybe New Orleans, or Galveston.

And even if you scratch my list on what constitutes a true tropical climate - it still doesn't change that Miami, as hot it can get on average for it's latitude, got below freezing at least half a dozen times in the last 50 years. Yeah it may not have happened since the last century but what's to say it won't happen again? And it Miami got into the 30's plenty of times in the last 30 years even though it hasn't gotten at or below freezing since '89.
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Old 11-30-2020, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,604,784 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by cevven View Post
They wouldn't be in the same climate zone and you know why? Washington, DC and Tulsa, OK are NOT subtropical, they get way too cold on average in the winter and DC especially gets too much frozen precipitation. Those cities are classified WRONG under the Koppen system. A true subtropical climate will be somewhere like Orlando, Jacksonville, maybe New Orleans, or Galveston.

And even if you scratch my list on what constitutes a true tropical climate - it still doesn't change that Miami, as hot it can get on average for it's latitude, got below freezing at least half a dozen times in the last 50 years. Yeah it may not have happened since the last century but what's to say it won't happen again? And it Miami got into the 30's plenty of times in the last 30 years even though it hasn't gotten at or below freezing since '89.
Miami isn't even in the same climate zone as the 4 cities you mentioned.

Just examine an average Meteorological winter between the 5 using 1990-2019 stats

Average highs 80°F+=
Miami 43
Orlando 26
Jacksonville 13
New Orleans 4
Galveston 0

Average highs below 70°F=
Miami 9
Orlando 26
Jacksonville 44
New Orleans 57
Galveston 65

Average highs below 60°F=
Miami 0
Orlando 7
Jacksonville 14
New Orleans 28
Galveston 27

Average lows 70°F+=
Miami 21
Orlando 0
Jacksonville 0
New Orleans 0
Galveston 0

Average lows below 60°F=
Miami 28
Orlando 68
Jacksonville 84
New Orleans 78
Galveston 73

Average lows below 50°F=
Miami 5
Orlando 34
Jacksonville 58
New Orleans 54
Galveston 40

Average lows below 40°F=
Miami 0
Orlando 8
Jacksonville 30
New Orleans 22
Galveston 9

Does Miami really look similar to these other 4 looking at the data?
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,676,363 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
So you want to move the isotherm to 20C? That would exclude Townsville and many other tropical climates that make the 18C cut.

Cold in tropical climates is not exclusive to Miami either. Near sea level and low elevation (<500 m) areas in the northern parts of Thailand, Laos, and Myanmar have seen near freezing and freezing temperatures (-1 to 2C) before. The same has also occurred in Mexico down to about the 20th parallel. Cold has also penetrated the western Amazon deep into Bolivia, Peru, and Brazil. But by and large, all of these climates are still dominated by warmth.
I don't believe in isotherm and classification, only general truths by which climates can be grouped together - Miami is a warm climate that can occasionally get cold, that tropical climates never get.

Any region that is generally warm, but also susceptible to the type of cold Miami gets, should be distinct from the never cold climates.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
So to entertain your argument, we should disqualify New Zealand from the oceanic category because of a 35C heatwave?
No, because the single most defining feature of Oceanic climates is temperature moderation in all seasons, which describes NZ well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
Well that goes against traditional scientific thinking, which Koppen summed up in his "crystallized, visible climate" comment. Really the link between vegetation/biome and climate well established and uncontroversial.

I think you're quite mixed up. All it shows is that a) avocados and jacarandas have quite a wide climate tolerance towards the warmer end of the climate spectrum b) Koppen's system is crude and doesn't distinguish well between warm and cool "oceanic" climates , and c) you happen to live in one of the coolest "oceanic" climates that can grow avocados.

If you choose something that has stricter and more appropriate requirements, it works better. For example the durians and sealing wax palms I mentioned before would well distinguish a climate that rarely if ever falls below about 7-10C and thus is definitely tropical.
What it shows, is that only climate matters to vegetation, not classification.

Classification does not enable a user to understand ecology, only specific climate data or direct firsthand experience can do that.
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:09 PM
 
1,503 posts, read 914,682 times
Reputation: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I don't believe in isotherm and classification, only general truths by which climates can be grouped together - Miami is a warm climate that can occasionally get cold, that tropical climates never get.

Any region that is generally warm, but also susceptible to the type of cold Miami gets, should be distinct from the never cold climates.





No, because the single most defining feature of Oceanic climates in temperature moderation in all seasons, which describes NZ well.



What it shows, is that only climate matters to vegetation, not classification.

Classification does not enable a user to understand ecology, only specific climate data or direct firsthand experience can do that.

Now that's even more mixed up... you don't seem to believe in classification, but have an opinion on what classification category Miami should belong
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,541,288 times
Reputation: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
No, because the single most defining feature of Oceanic climates is temperature moderation in all seasons, which describes NZ well.
How is +13/14C departure from the normal high a good example of "temperature moderation in all seasons"?
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