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View Poll Results: What would Miami be classified as
Subtropical 5 29.41%
Tropical 12 70.59%
Other 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-25-2020, 11:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
Certainly Brisbane's native flora is far more tropical-looking than Orlando's.




Source: my own photos
Awesome photos, especially the first.

Where did you take them? near Northbrook Gorges or QLD-NSW border?
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Sheffield, England
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Tropical Monsoon (Am).
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Etobicoke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmdesert View Post
Miami = humid, wet-dry subtropical, but transitional to tropical

(humid = mostly higher atmospheric humidity; wet-dry = wet and dry seasons each year; subtropical = not Koppen, but also extreme cold >32F / 0C)
Agreed.
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
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Is Tampico, Mexico tropical? If Tampico is tropical, then Miami also has to be tropical. Miami has warmer means and extremes than Tampico.

There's no convincing argument for Tampico being anything other than tropical. It's tropical in latitude and temperature. The local flora and fauna are tropical. It's even situated within the northernmost extension of tropical broadleaf evergreen forest (Veracruz moist forest) in Mexico which extends slightly further north to about 23*N in the lower elevations near the mountains south of Ciudad Victoria. Yes maybe the area might see a light freeze a few times a century and even upper 20s in a 100 or 500 year event. Doesn't change the fact that it's climatically and ecologically tropical.

If the lowland Gulf coast of Mexico at 22-23*N is tropical, then Miami must also be tropical.
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Old 11-13-2020, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Nirvana
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I understand under Koppen and Trewartha, Miami is classified as a tropical climate. As I said in another post Miami certainly has some tropical characteristics in this climate and vegetation but I can't say with a straight face it's a TRUE tropical climate. I guy mentioned in another forum that based on his research (search for RickSantos) that exact between the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn, due to the curve of the earth surface there, the sun rays do something a bit different there than other locations. Miami and South Florida right above the Tropic of Cancer - meaning they may not get intensity of the sun's rays as locations between the Tropic lines do. I would say Miami has a subtropical climate that is transitioning to Tropical. Miami gets way too cold at sea level in the winter to be true tropical. Miami is in hardiness zone 10B (maybe zone 11A in some of the microclimates and southern suburbs bordering the ocean) meaning the minimum temperature each every year is between 35 and 40 on average. Miami in the same hardiness zones as many locations in temperate areas, some in very high latitudes. Outside places that are significantly high in elevation (like mountain ranges or very high hills or plateaus), you aren't going find any places that are zone 10B in the tropical zone - especially at Miami's elevation. Also, no true tropical place at sea level or the lower elevations will reach that close to freezing. Miami has got below freezing in the past quite a few times as well.

Also, as I said in other posts, North America, due to it's geography and the various conditions of the polar vortex in the northern hemisphere, makes places in the lower 48, all the way down to South Florida, fall victim to recordbreaking arctic blasts every so often that actually kill a lot of tropical AND subtropical crops and vegetation. I would say if we had a stronger, more stable polar vortex that actually stays put on the North Pole, like the one in the Southern Hemisphere does on the South Pole, the south will have way more moderate winters and a more true subtropical climate - Miami still wouldn't be a Puerto Rico, Belize, Coastal Colombia, or a Congo, but it would even have more tropical characteristics in it's climate and vegetation. Mainstream commercial citrus will be able to be grown further north as well.
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Old 11-13-2020, 04:29 AM
 
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It is not 100% tropical as it used to get cold there when we had real winters back in the 1980's.
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Old 11-13-2020, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cevven View Post
I understand under Koppen and Trewartha, Miami is classified as a tropical climate. As I said in another post Miami certainly has some tropical characteristics in this climate and vegetation but I can't say with a straight face it's a TRUE tropical climate. I guy mentioned in another forum that based on his research (search for RickSantos) that exact between the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn, due to the curve of the earth surface there, the sun rays do something a bit different there than other locations. Miami and South Florida right above the Tropic of Cancer - meaning they may not get intensity of the sun's rays as locations between the Tropic lines do. I would say Miami has a subtropical climate that is transitioning to Tropical. Miami gets way too cold at sea level in the winter to be true tropical. Miami is in hardiness zone 10B (maybe zone 11A in some of the microclimates and southern suburbs bordering the ocean) meaning the minimum temperature each every year is between 35 and 40 on average. Miami in the same hardiness zones as many locations in temperate areas, some in very high latitudes. Outside places that are significantly high in elevation (like mountain ranges or very high hills or plateaus), you aren't going find any places that are zone 10B in the tropical zone - especially at Miami's elevation. Also, no true tropical place at sea level or the lower elevations will reach that close to freezing. Miami has got below freezing in the past quite a few times as well.

Also, as I said in other posts, North America, due to it's geography and the various conditions of the polar vortex in the northern hemisphere, makes places in the lower 48, all the way down to South Florida, fall victim to recordbreaking arctic blasts every so often that actually kill a lot of tropical AND subtropical crops and vegetation. I would say if we had a stronger, more stable polar vortex that actually stays put on the North Pole, like the one in the Southern Hemisphere does on the South Pole, the south will have way more moderate winters and a more true subtropical climate - Miami still wouldn't be a Puerto Rico, Belize, Coastal Colombia, or a Congo, but it would even have more tropical characteristics in it's climate and vegetation. Mainstream commercial citrus will be able to be grown further north as well.
Did you bother to look at the data? Miami Intl Airport (a few miles inland) hasn't been below 40F since 2010 and averages 43F as the average lowest minimum temperature for the period 1990-2020. The coastal strip and downtown/along the river is even warmer.

So what do you think of Tampico, Mexico? It's on the coast at 22.2*N and has both cooler winter averages than Miami and is more prone to cold air. Is Tampico not tropical? Why would Miami not be tropical if you consider Tampico tropical?

Tampico has native tropical plants, tropical birds, tropical iguanas, and tropical crocodiles. Miami has native tropical plants, tropical birds, and tropical crocodiles as well as alien invasive tropical iguanas, tropical pythons, tropical monitor lizards, tropical cockroaches and pretty much every other tropical invasive from your nightmares
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Old 11-14-2020, 01:31 AM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
Did you bother to look at the data? Miami Intl Airport (a few miles inland) hasn't been below 40F since 2010 and averages 43F as the average lowest minimum temperature for the period 1990-2020. The coastal strip and downtown/along the river is even warmer.

So what do you think of Tampico, Mexico? It's on the coast at 22.2*N and has both cooler winter averages than Miami and is more prone to cold air. Is Tampico not tropical? Why would Miami not be tropical if you consider Tampico tropical?

Tampico has native tropical plants, tropical birds, tropical iguanas, and tropical crocodiles. Miami has native tropical plants, tropical birds, and tropical crocodiles as well as alien invasive tropical iguanas, tropical pythons, tropical monitor lizards, tropical cockroaches and pretty much every other tropical invasive from your nightmares
Yeah, I just looked that city up in Mexico. It's basically right below Brownsville, TX and it is classified as a tropical savanna climate by Koppen (Sw). Now, they do have a record low of 29, just 2 degrees above Miami. They are at zone 11B with zone 12 microclimates (minimum temperature 45 to 49 degrees) which you do find zone 11B in the tropics BUT usually at a higher elevations away from the sea but it's a whole zone higher than Miami on average. I haven't looked into just yet but Tampico may or may have the frequent lows in the 30's and lower 40s as Miami does. That being said, that place is said to be abnormality for a tropical zone (as you pointed out, Tampico is just right below the Tropic of Cancer line at 22.2*N). This is what I pulled up:

"In February 1895, snow was reported to have fallen in Tampico. This is the North American record for the furthest south report of snow at a coastal location, and makes Tampico one of the few places that snow has fallen in the tropics at sea level"

So it did snow there but that was in 1895. Plus, as Tampico is just south of the south TX border, so it can be somewhat subject to the continental influences due to the geography of North America (I read Rockies in the West tugs on the jet stream, causing it to many times deep extremely far down south in the winter) as well as the unstable, relatively weak polar vortex that supposed to stay put on the North Pole like the one in the South Pole does. Yes, Tampico does have lower temperatures in the winter than Miami WHEN It comes to the winter lows by a few degrees (59 as low in January in Tampico, 61 in Miami). I think because Tampico is a bit drier and less humid than Miami, and while they get some moderating effects from the ocean, it seems the Gulf Stream benefits South Florida a little more than Tampico in that regard. I still think Miami does experience more temperatures in the 40's and below than Tampico though as Tampico is actually in the tropics and get those more direct rays from the sun more than South Florida (You are right, from 2011 to 2019, Miami annual temperature minima was 40F and up BUT it got down to like 39 in January 2020, as they made a report of frozen "live" iguanas falling from trees in the area) .

Now can I say Tampico has a true tropical climate? Eh, not really. Now technically it's in the tropics for sure because of it's location (just barely in the tropics zone) while Miami is not in the tropics by location (it's north of the Tropic of Cancer at 25.7*N). I would still say both have a "transitional tropical climate" (transition from subtropical to tropical) which would be said to be a 'subtropical climate' technically - North America (Continental US, Canada, Northern Mexico) have very continental influences. I seen a map somewhere (when I find the map, I'll post here) saying South Florida having a "paratropical" climate versus a tropical or subtropical one. I seen that term for the first time when I seen that map.
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Old 11-14-2020, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Nirvana
346 posts, read 199,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKJ1988 View Post
It is not 100% tropical as it used to get cold there when we had real winters back in the 1980's.
Agreed. I'm glad you see this. I voted it as a 'subtropical' climate on the poll because while it certainly has a lot of tropical features in its climate and vegetation, it just gets too cold in the winter at sea level. A poster pointed out another place (in Northern Mexico near the southern tip of Texas) that's actually below the Tropic of Cancer that has got down to freezing in the last 150 years and said to the furthest place is snowed in North America at sea level - but that place is said to be an extreme abnormality for the tropics and even southern fringes of the subtropics. I would say, at best Miami has a "Transitional Tropical Climate" or maybe a "Tropical Climate with Continental influences" (Tom77Falcons came up with that in a thread, so I credit him lol), but not a "true" tropical climate. Now in the 2010's, Miami was fairly mild in the winter than previous decades (Miami is classified as 10B in Hardiness with Zone 11A microclimates throughout the metro but had 11A and even a couple of 11B winters in 2010's but got hit with a 10B one in January 2020 with the frozen iguana phenomenon), but the 2000's and prior was different and especially the 1980's as you pointed out.
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Old 11-14-2020, 02:45 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
1,440 posts, read 2,541,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cevven View Post
Yeah, I just looked that city up in Mexico. It's basically right below Brownsville, TX and it is classified as a tropical savanna climate by Koppen (Sw). Now, they do have a record low of 29, just 2 degrees above Miami. They are at zone 11B with zone 12 microclimates (minimum temperature 45 to 49 degrees) which you do find zone 11B in the tropics BUT usually at a higher elevations away from the sea but it's a whole zone higher than Miami on average. I haven't looked into just yet but Tampico may or may have the frequent lows in the 30's and lower 40s as Miami does. That being said, that place is said to be abnormality for a tropical zone (as you pointed out, Tampico is just right below the Tropic of Cancer line at 22.2*N). This is what I pulled up:

"In February 1895, snow was reported to have fallen in Tampico. This is the North American record for the furthest south report of snow at a coastal location, and makes Tampico one of the few places that snow has fallen in the tropics at sea level"

So it did snow there but that was in 1895. Plus, as Tampico is just south of the south TX border, so it can be somewhat subject to the continental influences due to the geography of North America (I read Rockies in the West tugs on the jet stream, causing it to many times deep extremely far down south in the winter) as well as the unstable, relatively weak polar vortex that supposed to stay put on the North Pole like the one in the South Pole does. Yes, Tampico does have lower temperatures in the winter than Miami WHEN It comes to the winter lows by a few degrees (59 as low in January in Tampico, 61 in Miami). I think because Tampico is a bit drier and less humid than Miami, and while they get some moderating effects from the ocean, it seems the Gulf Stream benefits South Florida a little more than Tampico in that regard. I still think Miami does experience more temperatures in the 40's and below than Tampico though as Tampico is actually in the tropics and get those more direct rays from the sun more than South Florida (You are right, from 2011 to 2019, Miami annual temperature minima was 40F and up BUT it got down to like 39 in January 2020, as they made a report of frozen "live" iguanas falling from trees in the area) .

Now can I say Tampico has a true tropical climate? Eh, not really. Now technically it's in the tropics for sure because of it's location (just barely in the tropics zone) while Miami is not in the tropics by location (it's north of the Tropic of Cancer at 25.7*N). I would still say both have a "transitional tropical climate" (transition from subtropical to tropical) which would be said to be a 'subtropical climate' technically - North America (Continental US, Canada, Northern Mexico) have very continental influences. I seen a map somewhere (when I find the map, I'll post here) saying South Florida having a "paratropical" climate versus a tropical or subtropical one. I seen that term for the first time when I seen that map.
Here is a record of cold in Tampico

1962: 34F
1983: 33F
1989: 28F
1997: 39F
2010: 38F
2011: 36F
2014: 39F
2018: 39F

11b? Key West is 11b not Tampico. Tampico a whole zone higher than Miami? hahaha. Both Tampico and Miami get into the 40s every winter. Miami averages an annual minimum of 43F for the last 30 years, how can Tampico be a whole zone higher? You are contradicting yourself.

Miami also has warmer average highs in January than Tampico (76F vs 73F) despite getting "less direct rays from the sun"

Whether or not you think Tampico is tropical for some arbitrary reason, Tampico and that area of lowland Tamaulipas is indistinguishable from neighboring Veracruz to the south. Same plants same animals same ecology. Same "tropical sun rays"

Also Tampico is 300 miles south of the Texas border. That is about the same distance as St. Augustine to Miami, quite significant.
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