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"Palms" are a very broad category of trees. There's no reason not to grow some hardy palms in colder areas; they often require minimal maintenance and look interesting compared to the other plants and trees around them.
Fruit-bearing coconut trees tend not to "lie," though. If you are in an area with lots of larger, productive cocos, then you can be reasonably sure that the year-round climate is fairly mild.
Looks like S Brazil and NE Argentina has same climate as Southern US
Yea, parts of Australia and the SE part of South America along a few other small regions of the world have the small climate types as the Eastern US and East Asia.
But because North America and Asia are much larger continents, they have bigger seasonal differences. Asia has more extreme seasons than the US. Compare Buenos Aires in South America:
There are also cabbage trees which grown on pretty much every street.
They certainly would have looked out of place during the month of Dec 2010 when London had an average high of 38 and an avg low of 30, with low min for the month being 15. In fact, Canary Island Palms are hardy down to about 17, then they bite the dust. London is a heat island micro-climate that is why there are palms there. There are areas outside of London that went down to 12F and colder. Palms don't like that and get burned and die.
There certainly aren't any palms native to the forests of the UK. There are a few cold hardy varieties that will grow on your southern coasts, but they ain't much to write home about when your sitting on a cloudy windswept beach with a water temp of 60F.
Isn't your "native" vegetation and more generally that of the PNW, mostly evergreen conifers though, like Douglas fir etc. rather than deciduous forest? You guys have big trees that make eastern trees look like deciduous overgrown shrubs by comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumbler.
Oh yeah, and you guys do have one native species of broadleaf evergreen over there Pacific Madrone, right?
I think that's the only native evergreen tree in Canada that's not a needleleaf/conifer that if I'm not mistaken.
Our native vegetation is predominantly conifers such as western red cedar, sitka spruce and douglas fir with the undergrowth mainly evergreen ferns but we also have some native deciduous species like dogwood, maples, oak etc. Most of the forest out there is secondary growth forests as most of the old growth forests have been cut down. As a result, the trees aren't as "big" as they might otherwise me.
The Pacific Madrone is only native to southern Vancouver Island, Gulf Islands and a few immediate coastal areas of the Lower mainland. They are not common all over Vancouver as one would think. I think this is more of a precipitation issue than a cold tolerance issue though. I think they could and should be planted more often.
To be honest, I don't know why the city keeps planting these ugly looking deciduous trees everywhere when they can plant palms and other much more attractive broadleaf evergreens instead.
When I said rip out the deciduous trees, I certainly did not mean the evergreen conifers which I think look fairly attractive considering they're a temperate zone tree
Isn't your "native" vegetation and more generally that of the PNW, mostly evergreen conifers though, like Douglas fir etc. rather than deciduous forest? You guys have big trees that make eastern trees look like deciduous overgrown shrubs by comparison.
I agree that New Zealand seems to look the most stereotypical tropical-like of non-tropical or temperate climates in vegetation, at least from photos I've seen.
But could it be the look of deciduous trees characteristic of the northeast extending pretty far south in the US that gives the "cold climate" look you describe -- ie. trees that give "fall colour" before dropping their leaves like maples or oaks are still found in places with mild winters and very hot humid summers like Georgia or Alabama.
Yes partly that. Also pines and cypresses are just like firs to most people here, and magnolias grow even down south. They just don't seem warm climate to me.
I remember maps from geography class when I was in school often showed "deciduous forest" as a shaded area from area on the map, starting in southern Ontario, the Great Lakes area and New England in the north down into Florida (perhaps excluding southern Florida as "tropical vegetation").
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Originally Posted by wavehunter007
I would have to agree with TOM77FALCONS on the above:
The coastal lowlands of the Southeast are mostly covered with hardwood evergreens (live oaks, magnolias, cypress swamps, etc) and palms. Much of the coastal plain of the Gulf/South Atlantic, while classified as Cfa –Humid Subtropical, is really more Subtropical Wet/Dry Cw. Florida has a wet/dry rainfall pattern and winters can be very dry, so the “jungle look” is not very common, since sunshine and heat rule for much of the year. I would expect in a damp/cooler climate like New Zealand to even be more green "lush" the subtropical (Cf) or even tropical savanna climates (Aw). Of course in the Southwestern USA - this is even more the case, much of the subtropical zone is classified as Cs/Csa (Subtropical Mediterranean) so the last thing it is lush (lol). Also, as far as the flora of New Zealand being of “tropical origin” not real sure about that one. From what I understand, despite all the palms cultivated anywhere in New Zealand – there is only one “native/wild palm” nīkau palm. Not sure if that is still the case.
My larger point was really how palms look in Temperate climates/environments (esp the man-made) vs Subtropical/Tropical climates:
For example, much of the architecture in tropical/subtropical climates has a certain “look’ that gives away its low latitude, hot, sunny location. Most buildings in the deep subtropics/tropics have large shutters to block the strong sun, are often raised off the ground for ventilation/cyclones, have long porches for sitting and catching a breeze, are often colored in bright colors, etc. Palms seem (?) to fit better in areas with this look. This concept might be a little more difficult to grasp in the southern Hemisphere, but I would guess that I mean the typical “Queenslander” style …vs… the style one might find in a typical building in deep South Island, NZ. I don’t really have a good picture of what I mean, but something like these would be a basic example here in the Northern Hemisphere:
House in the Portland area of the Pacific Northwest:
House in the Melbourne area of Florida:
When you take the difference in the man-made environment between the subtropics/tropics and the temperate zone …then added in with the difference in the look/feel of the weather between these zones (low latitude = hot, sunny, bright, high sun angles, tall convective clouds…etc/high latitudes = cool, more cloudy, low sun angles, horizontal stratus clouds, chill/damp/snow…etc)… my question is do palms fit in the look (both man-made and natural) of higher latitude temperate climates?
NZ bush is tropical in origin, plain and simple. Palms fit in very well with it. The Nikau isn't that common in cultivation, but is very common in original bush. NZ gardening tradition tried to recreate what the settlers missed, the "home look". That look is still ingrained here, the opposite to your valid point about cold climate Victorian gardeners. Our big ,bold, tropical type flora wasn't well regarded for a long time.. Most people don't care about palms either way, unless they are blocking their view or sprouting in their garden. They aren't new or novel, just normal. There has been a renewed ( by a few people)interest in newer species, but there isn't the Disneyland look of some places.
The light in NZ is brighter than I can remember in California and particularly the PNW. Tall convective clouds are common, but don't produce a lot of thunder , horizontal stratus cloud really doesn't dominate (crap when it does though). NZ skies are typically dynamic and I haven't seen anywhere else with the variety of clouds as here.
No houses down south look like the Portland one(unless there is a theme park somewhere)although they are typically different to here. The other house wouldn't look out of place here at all, although warm temperature adaptations aren't are a consideration. Our own house is designed for maximum winter sun and summer shade, so big verandas and big windows, big doors open on sunny winter days and warm the house for the night. A very shallow roof pitch as we don't get snow. The house is surrounded by winter flowering plants, as bees and other insects are in full swing on all but the wettest winter days. In winter Citrus, guava, passionfruit, tree tomatoes drop on the ground. Avocados wait to be picked, olives rot on the ground ( will harvest them one day). The point is, it's not about trying to be subtropical or pretending we live in Brisbane, rather just growing what is easy. That is the difference between here and northern Japan, Norway( thanks for the laughs) , the UK ,or the PNW. Further north is even better in this regard. If you can grow bananas commercially, this must surely say something about the climate. Florida we ain't, but neither are we coastal Norway.
They certainly would have looked out of place during the month of Dec 2010 when London had an average high of 38 and an avg low of 30, with low min for the month being 15.
That was the 2nd coldest December in over 350 years though, most winters don't get below 25F even on the coldest nights. The average low in the coldest month is 37F at Heathrow, and 41F in the centre.
Anyway..going to the beach this weekend, cloudless skies and temps in the low 80s forecast
NZ bush is tropical in origin, plain and simple. Palms fit in very well with it. The Nikau isn't that common in cultivation, but is very common in original bush. NZ gardening tradition tried to recreate what the settlers missed, the "home look". That look is still ingrained here, the opposite to your valid point about cold climate Victorian gardeners. Our big ,bold, tropical type flora wasn't well regarded for a long time.. Most people don't care about palms either way, unless they are blocking their view or sprouting in their garden. They aren't new or novel, just normal. There has been a renewed ( by a few people)interest in newer species, but there isn't the Disneyland look of some places.
The light in NZ is brighter than I can remember in California and particularly the PNW. Tall convective clouds are common, but don't produce a lot of thunder , horizontal stratus cloud really doesn't dominate (crap when it does though). NZ skies are typically dynamic and I haven't seen anywhere else with the variety of clouds as here.
Wow, that is really surprising to hear that the average cloud type around South Island is more of a convective one than of a stratus one. Here in the Northern Hemisphere, annually, convective clouds (tall) tend to be found below 35 latitude more often…while low stratus (horizontal) clouds tend to be found more often north of 35 latitude. Considering that about 2/3 of North Island, and ALL of South Island, NZ is above 35 south latitude, that seems strange.
My point about how palms mix with the man made environment is likely more blurred in the southern Hemisphere. In the Northern Hemisphere, I think most people could easily tell if a house was in Miami or Seattle. Perhaps (to use a Southern Hemisphere example), the difference between a house in Townsville or Darwin and a house in Dunedin or Christchurch are not as wide. I always thought the typical "Queenslander" stytle was something one would only see in tropical/subtropical Australia.
As far as “plants of tropical origin” I’m a little confused? There is only one palm tree native to New Zealand…so clearly there are no other palms (which are tropical/subtropical in origin) native to or wild in New Zealand. What other plants are of tropical origin that are wild/native to New Zealand?
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoney63
I'm not talking climate at all(or whether we can grow coconuts) , rather the look of the vegetation. Our vegetation is tropical in origin. Evergreen is all there is. There are 2 species that are partly deciduous. but most years even they keep their leaves- I've never actually seen them lose their leaves around here. Pines/cypresses are cold climate trees to people here, lumped together with firs. Maginola grows well even in Invercargill, and is valued for it's relative "hardiness". Big glossy foliage,fast growing tree ferns ( up to 50 ft) Podocarps, Pandanus, Mangroves, even a native feather palm are typical lowland species in much of the country.
I've seen the PNW. The dry eastern side of the Cascades looked more like NZ to me, rather than the wetter western side. people can often assume all of NZ is lush and green year round. This isn't the case.
Once again, this isn't a climate comparison, rather a response to the OP question regarding the impression given by palm culture in colder climates. I've long had an interest in climates, and the US is top of the list as far as I'm concerned.
Depends where in NZ. The North Island does look very lush like a tropical rainforest, while drier parts of the South Island could easily pass for somewhere like Canada, with what looked like pines, conifers and decidious trees. Compared to Australia your vegetation looks Northern Hemispheric.
Depends where in NZ. The North Island does look very lush like a tropical rainforest, while drier parts of the South Island could easily pass for somewhere like Canada, with what looked like pines, conifers and decidious trees. Compared to Australia your vegetation looks Northern Hemispheric.
That’s what I would have thought too…given the latitude and cool temperate oceanic conditions that prevail on much of South Island.
New Zealand’s long geological isolation means that most of its flora is unique to New Zealand…meaning it occurs nowhere else on earth. While that is centrally interesting and exciting - I’m not really sure that makes it “tropical in origin” however. Beyond ferns (which seem to be tropical in origin), there are a wide variety of native trees, adapted to all the various micro-climates in New Zealand. From what I’ve read - the native bush (forest) ranges from the subtropical Kauri forests of the northern North Island (which look like the more wild areas of the American Cf zone)… temperate rainforests of the West Coast….(which look like much of Western coastal Canada/PNW USA)… the alpine forests of the Southern Alps and Fiordland (which look like many lower Mt ranges in the USA).
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