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Old 08-22-2007, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
1,235 posts, read 3,774,928 times
Reputation: 397

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winkelman View Post
realclimate.org is a far left pro global warming site
You're on another planet. Pro global warming? What on earth does that mean?

Could you possibly post something logical or science-related instead of this incessant garbage about how the Left is trying to use Global Warming to achieve some goal which you've not yet outlined for us? I'd be interested to know how it benefits liberals to believe in scientific data and computer modeling. Sure, the data and models might be wrong, but that's precisely why jabm67's post was so excellent --- note that he said "Thing is, there is other stuff going on, and I don't know enough to be able to say what those are. That gets into climate models, about which I know little."

Good grief... the new propaganda says that accepting scientific evidence is a far left agenda... This nation has lost its collective mind. No wonder we're led by the least intelligent head of state in the industrialized world. Look at who votes. Winkelman, maybe you should just go work at that new Creation Science museum in Tennessee or Kentucky or wherever it is... somewhere in the least-educated part of the country where people will actually think you're smart. Then you can tell them how Cindy Sheehan is going to take over the world and become the anti-Christ through global warming propaganda. Sounds perfectly logical to me. My dog is nodding her head, so you must be correct.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,841 posts, read 19,035,813 times
Reputation: 9586
Default Set Point!

Reading the posts by TheHarvester and Winkleman is like watching a very entertaining tennis match. It appears that TheHarvester is about to win the first set.


POLL: Liberals Read More Books Than Conservatives


blessings...Franco
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
1,235 posts, read 3,774,928 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewAgeRedneck View Post
Reading the posts by TheHarvester and Winkleman is like watching a very entertaining tennis match. It appears that TheHarvester is about to win the first set.
Yikes, no, I don't want to win. Honestly, I'm on this forum because I'm not doing something more productive with my life. I'm here to socialize and I get an adrenaline rush from debates. I'm sure Winkelman will be equally jazzed by my feisty post. There's no "right" or "wrong" here, we're just a couple of schleps duking it out in the battlefield of barely-informed opinions. Neither of us has any answers but we're having fun pretending we do. The name "Winkelman" alone puts him way ahead of me. How can you not like someone named "Winkelman"?
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,841 posts, read 19,035,813 times
Reputation: 9586
Actually, I am enjoying the posts from both of you. As stated, it's like watching a very entertaining tennis match. After the ball is hit back and forth enough times, one of the players wins a set....doesn't mean you'll win the match, however. Maybe one or both of you will run out of steam before the match is over. Meantime, let's enjoy the game....I am!

blessings...Franco
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Old 08-22-2007, 02:50 PM
 
458 posts, read 779,137 times
Reputation: 156
Pro global warming? What on earth does that mean?

I think you got my point...


maybe you should just go work at that new Creation Science museum in Tennessee or Kentucky or wherever it is...

So if someone has doubts about GW they must be a new earth creationist wacko? You are about as far off as possible on that.


Then you can tell them how Cindy Sheehan is going to take over the world and become the anti-Christ through global warming propaganda.

I thought she was just a anti-war activist?


Good grief... the new propaganda says that accepting scientific evidence is a far left agenda...

I am all for science, I take scientific research as the most logical answer 99% of the time. However, with GW I believe there is a political component that cannot be ignored. I believe the data might be stretched and manipulated and the propaganda is way over the top. I believe some of the goals of Pro-GW alarmists are the same goals the far left has had for a long time. Wealth distribution through increased taxation and fees in this case to fight GW, controls and fees charged to large corporations, wealth distribution from the U.S. to other countries and more altruistic goals that I believe in like cleaning up the environment, ending our dependency on fossil fuels, etc. It's all about power and money.

Could you possibly post something logical or science-related instead of this incessant garbage about how the Left is trying to use Global Warming to achieve some goal which you've not yet outlined for us?

Go here:

debunkers.org » Global Warming (broken link)

They have put quite a bit of work debunking many of the claims by scientists at realclimate.org and Jim Hansen. They also have a section debunking creationism, so they are not some right wing Christian wackos. They are better at explaining the science behind their beliefs than I am.

IMHO, we may warmer than we were 50 years ago, but it was probably hotter worldwide back in the 1930's and back in the MWP a thousand years ago. No need to panic or start draconian GW laws to be put into place. Our planet survived during previous warming cycles and it will do just fine now.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
269 posts, read 1,245,753 times
Reputation: 158
Well, I was not interested in the political labels or motivations; I'm interested in the actual work itself, which is why a blog coming from the people who actually work the models is of interest. I want to understand the technical details of the climate models and the scientific merit of that kind of work: the physics and computational methods involved, the validation cases, the input data streams, and so on.

None of that can be judged on the basis of politics, and as this thread has so clearly illustrated, one cannot get any comments about climate models from a third party without getting an injection of irrelevant political judgment.

Last edited by jabm67; 08-23-2007 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
1,235 posts, read 3,774,928 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabm67 View Post
...as this thread has so clearly illustrated, one cannot get any comments about climate models from a third party without getting an injection of irrelevant political judgment.
Hey, wait a minute, buster! My political judgments are relevant, self-righteous, bloated, preposterous and, uhhh... hmmm.... I guess you're right.

By the way, an amusing comment by someone in a recent Discover article went like this: "There are two types of climate scientists: Physicists and Stamp Collectors." Should I elaborate or see if people can guess what that statement means? If you think about it, it makes sense. It's just a funny way of saying it.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
269 posts, read 1,245,753 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHarvester View Post
By the way, an amusing comment by someone in a recent Discover article went like this: "There are two types of climate scientists: Physicists and Stamp Collectors." Should I elaborate or see if people can guess what that statement means? If you think about it, it makes sense. It's just a funny way of saying it.
The original version of that comment is over 50 years old; it's a quote from Lord Rutherford. I've actually tried (without success, but I haven't hit a good library looking for it yet) to find the context in which it was made; it comes across as rather self-serving and abrasive, and I suspect it may not have been so intended when it was made.

There's a powerful counter-statement from Martin Schwarzschild (not aimed at Rutherford; it's from the first chapter of a textbook he wrote): "True, the laws [of the Universe] to be discovered may be perfect, but the human brain is not. Left on its own, it is prone to stray.... Thus pillars rather than crutches are the observations on which we base our theories."

And early on, before you understand a phenomenon, the first steps in any science, including physics, involve a bit of "stamp collecting".
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:37 PM
 
458 posts, read 779,137 times
Reputation: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabm67 View Post
Well, I was not interested in the political labels or motivations; I'm interested in the actual work itself, which is why a blog coming from the people who actually work the models is of interest. I want to understand the technical details of the climate models and the scientific merit of that kind of work: the physics and computational methods involved, the validation cases, the input data streams, and so on.

None of that can be judged on the basis of politics, and as this thread has so clearly illustrated, one cannot get any comments about climate models from a third party without getting an injection of irrelevant political judgment.
My point is if you quote a blog funded by one of the most liberal PR firms in the country, a website with a clear pro-global warming agenda you are only getting one side of the argument. They can say they are non political and not biased but its not accurate.

Take a look here:

Climate Audit - by Steve McIntyre » Is Gavin Schmidt Honest?

RealClimate.org will not allow posts from any viewpoint that does not back up their Pro GW view. Apparently taking a critical look at GW is considered political and will not be posted.

Last edited by Winkelman; 08-23-2007 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
1,235 posts, read 3,774,928 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabm67 View Post
The original version of that comment is over 50 years old; it's a quote from Lord Rutherford.
...
And early on, before you understand a phenomenon, the first steps in any science, including physics, involve a bit of "stamp collecting".
The way it was quoted in the article (or perhaps a Science channel show) was not in the context of elevating one above the other. They're both needed. A climate modeler is a dolt in the absence of some stamp collection.

For those who don't get it, "stamp collecting" means "gathering actual data" and "physics" means "studying the reasons for the data and generating models that predict how physical properties will interact to create new data sets." Sort of. I over-simplified it but hopefully we can all see how the two are needed. Science is a process of data (stamp) collection and theorizing (modeling) the data sets to see if they fit with a general concept that can help us work with the world we've got and make predictions about how things would work if we tweak a few gizmos and get different sets of data. No a terribly exact process, hence the endless bickering. Stamp collectors tend to be more docile as they're often less attached to their models and simply enjoy sharing data. It's the physicists (the theorists) who throw chairs at each other in their battle for intellectual supremacy. Funny thing it, in the long run almost every model is destroyed in favor of a better one, whereas the stamps tend to hold their value over time.

OK, if that metaphor is a horse then I think I just beat it to death...
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