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There's no large island in the Pacific off of British Columbia at 50°N, but there is at 53°N. Perhaps this can tell us how the UK's climate would be if it were in the Pacific rather than the Atlantic.
Here's a location in Haida Gwaii, an island off the coast of BC at 53°:
Liverpool is distinctly warmer, especially in the warmer months. So my take is the Gulf Stream makes the biggest difference in the summer, not winter months as lots posters are saying. The rainfall is different in the two places as well.
This island in Scotland is almost the same as Haida Gwaii, despite 5°N north, but that could be because there's no continental land mass nearby as well as the Gulf Stream
I hadn't thought of Haida Gwaii because I was thinking they are still too close to the mainland to produce a noticeable effect. I measured it and the furthest point is Cape St. James at the southern tip which is 150km from mainland BC. Places like Aberdeen, Scotland have at least 3 times as much water between them and Scandinavia. Cape St. James is still fairly mild in winter though with much cooler summers than equivalent latitudes in Europe as you suggest:
Actually the Southern Aleutians are close to 50N and are way out in the Pacific and should not be influenced by a continental landmass but the statistics show that they are actually much colder even in winter than places closer to the coast surprisingly
Not sure if you saw my previous post about this, but the amount of frost is only half the picture. It's like looking at avg temps without std deviation. Cool oceanic climates may not get frost, but I don't see the UK or New Zealand growing cotton, which requires 90F-95F to grow well. I just looked at a British Ag site, and tomatoes though grown in the UK commercially, are all grown in greenhouses because, as the site states:
"Under outdoor conditions, tomatoes can only be cultivated between July and October in this country and success depends very much on what sort of a summer we have."
Tomatoes require 8 hours of sun a day or else they end up spindly and produce no fruit. And this from the BBC climate summary of the UK:
"In Britain daily sunshine hours range from between one and two in midwinter to between five and seven in midsummer."
Doesn't seem enough to grow tomatoes sucessfully without lots of care. Here they grow like weeds in summer. And tomatoes are just one of many on a long list of fruit and veg that need heat and sun.
Am not sure about other oceanic climates, but I don't think it's accurate to just look at the amount of frost and whether or not bananas can be grown with a ton of tlc in a warm, sunny corner of a garden.
Yes, I wasn't referring to crops that require a lot of heat like tomatoes and cotton.. I know they won't grow well in most oceanic climates.. I was thinking more about the cool hardy palms and evergreens that seem to do really well in coastal NZ and the Isles of Scilly...
I was wondering what conditions would be necessary at 50N in the Pacific to be able to produce a garden like we see at 50N in Europe:
Yes, I wasn't referring to crops that require a lot of heat like tomatoes and cotton.. I know they won't grow well in most oceanic climates.. I was thinking more about the cool hardy palms and evergreens that seem to do really well in coastal NZ and the Isles of Scilly...
I was wondering what conditions would be necessary at 50N in the Pacific to be able to produce a garden like we see at 50N in Europe:
Looking at the Tresco palms, makes me wonder why there aren't any CIDPs that size on the UK mainland (not that I've been able to find). They must have tried to grow them in the south of England for the same amount of time, given the passion for gardening a lot of people have there. The exceptionally cold winters kills almost all CIDPs, otherwise you would see the big ones. If there were gardening websites around for the winter of 1979, I think there would have been lots of accounts of dead CIDPs.
The difference between the the UK and coastal BC during cold spells, might not be the great, but still enough to have a big effect on a certain range of plants.
Looking at the Tresco palms, makes me wonder why there aren't any CIDPs that size on the UK mainland (not that I've been able to find). They must have tried to grow them in the south of England for the same amount of time, given the passion for gardening a lot of people have there. The exceptionally cold winters kills almost all CIDPs, otherwise you would see the big ones. If there were gardening websites around for the winter of 1979, I think there would have been lots of accounts of dead CIDPs.
The difference between the the UK and coastal BC during cold spells, might not be the great, but still enough to have a big effect on a certain range of plants.
They also seem to do really well in Cork, Ireland.. take a look at the size of this one:
How is it that a place like Adak way out in the Pacific with no continent nearby for more than 1,000km can't grow these and are almost treeless? Ocean currents must play a role.
I hadn't thought of Haida Gwaii because I was thinking they are still too close to the mainland to produce a noticeable effect. I measured it and the furthest point is Cape St. James at the southern tip which is 150km from mainland BC. Places like Aberdeen, Scotland have at least 3 times as much water between them and Scandinavia. Cape St. James is still fairly mild in winter though with much cooler summers than equivalent latitudes in Europe as you suggest:
Actually the Southern Aleutians are close to 50N and are way out in the Pacific and should not be influenced by a continental landmass but the statistics show that they are actually much colder even in winter than places closer to the coast surprisingly
It's not the Gulf Stream. You should compare the east side of an ocean basin with other eastern ocean basins. Southeast Alaska and BC is much warmer than the Aleutians at the same latitude. The Aleutians are about midway or more from the eastern edge of the Pacific to Russia. If you go far enough west in the North Pacific, you would get to Eastern Russia, which is much colder than SE Alaska / BC. Labrador should be compared to Eastern Russia. Coastal BC and SE Alaska to NW Europe.
Eastern sides of ocean basin always have a warm current, but the Gulf Current is unusually large and warm.
Scotland isn't really much colder than England. In fact places like Glasgow, let alone the Outer Hebrides, are maybe a couple of degrees colder than London. Ireland tends to be even milder because it's more influenced by the Gulf Stream.
Before I read the rest of this thread, yes the Gulf Stream has a major influence. It's basically a stronger version of the Aleutian current on the West coast of the US. Without it, my guess is that London would be about as cold as Boston in winter (since it's still very maritime).
I guess you can disregard my point about Ireland but what I was trying to say is that without the Gulf Stream, England would (might?) be marginally cooler, but it wouldn't at all become subarctic like, say, Sakhalin Island. I don't thing the Gulf Stream is a huge influence.
Not sure if you saw my previous post about this, but the amount of frost is only half the picture. It's like looking at avg temps without std deviation. Cool oceanic climates may not get frost, but I don't see the UK or New Zealand growing cotton, which requires 90F-95F to grow well. I just looked at a British Ag site, and tomatoes though grown in the UK commercially, are all grown in greenhouses because, as the site states:
"Under outdoor conditions, tomatoes can only be cultivated between July and October in this country and success depends very much on what sort of a summer we have."
Tomatoes require 8 hours of sun a day or else they end up spindly and produce no fruit. And this from the BBC climate summary of the UK:
"In Britain daily sunshine hours range from between one and two in midwinter to between five and seven in midsummer."
Doesn't seem enough to grow tomatoes sucessfully without lots of care. Here they grow like weeds in summer. And tomatoes are just one of many on a long list of fruit and veg that need heat and sun.
Am not sure about other oceanic climates, but I don't think it's accurate to just look at the amount of frost and whether or not bananas can be grown with a ton of tlc in a warm, sunny corner of a garden.
I think for people who like growing marginal plants in oceanic climates, winter minimums are by far the most important factor. A lot of plants will survive summers cooler than they like, even if growth is very slow. For the type of plants that are mostly talked about (not cotton ) on this forum, winter conditions matter the most- eg: CIDPs in BC have an issue with winter temps, not summer temps. Same with bananas, surviving winter intact is all that matters for a climate like these. Mine are growing at 6 inches a day, even though temps are barely into the 20C/70F range
I think it's easy to overestimate, as well as underestimate, the amount of heat plants need. Peaches, which were mentioned in another post, are just as good here as in Australia ( I've worked on stone fruit orchards in both countries), although the harvest is a couple of weeks later. Tomatoes grow like weeds here as well, my first outdoor ones will be ready in 2-3 weeks, although crops will be greater in warmer climates, I will still be harvesting tomatoes until early June (most years). My bananas grow out in the open and don't get any extra tlc, bananas anywhere are hungry and thirsty.
It's not the Gulf Stream. You should compare the east side of an ocean basin with other eastern ocean basins. Southeast Alaska and BC is much warmer than the Aleutians at the same latitude. The Aleutians are about midway or more from the eastern edge of the Pacific to Russia. If you go far enough west in the North Pacific, you would get to Eastern Russia, which is much colder than SE Alaska / BC. Labrador should be compared to Eastern Russia. Coastal BC and SE Alaska to NW Europe.
Eastern sides of ocean basin always have a warm current, but the Gulf Current is unusually large and warm.
Actually Adak Island is about midway between Kamchatka and Alaska, so it's not really closer to Russia. My point was that ocean currents must play a role because there is no large landmass nearby.
I hadn't thought of Haida Gwaii because I was thinking they are still too close to the mainland to produce a noticeable effect. I measured it and the furthest point is Cape St. James at the southern tip which is 150km from mainland BC. Places like Aberdeen, Scotland have at least 3 times as much water between them and Scandinavia. Cape St. James is still fairly mild in winter though with much cooler summers than equivalent latitudes in Europe as you suggest:
Actually the Southern Aleutians are close to 50N and are way out in the Pacific and should not be influenced by a continental landmass but the statistics show that they are actually much colder even in winter than places closer to the coast surprisingly
There is a similar parallel between Iceland and Greenland. Southern Greenland is considerably further south than Iceland, yet a comparison of Nanortalik ( 60 ) and Reykjavik ( 64 ) shows a major difference.
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