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View Poll Results: What climate do you prefer?
Sydney, Australia 52 61.90%
Atlanta, Georgia, USA 32 38.10%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-05-2012, 02:30 AM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I'm on the other side of that view. The winter determines what the overall climate is like for me . A winter that is 5 months long is not worth a hot summer. Atlanta is fine because it has only 3 months of a mild winter(although the record low is another matter). Philadelphia or further north, have the duration and temps to give me that "trapped" feeling for winter.

I like a year round outdoor climate. One in which surfing, kayaking or boating are not hard to do in winter. Also with a decent enough summer to allow for 3-4 months of mostly comfortable beach weather, and still featuring a few days that are uncomfortably hot. Although wet/cloudy conditions annoy me at times in winter, I seldom consider the temps when doing things.

Atlanta would be fine for me, except that it's up against a climate I like even more.
I don't consider us having five months of winter. Our avg high/low in November is 56F/39F, and March is 53F/34. Two of those five months would be the same as your outdoor type winter. If I'm looking at the right numbers your July averages are not far off at all from our November and March. So you would really only have the three months of winter where you couldn't do outdoor activities.

The other thing you have to remember about our weather is the large std deviation in winter vs summer. We get consistently warm summer temps with very little variation. In winter, yeah we get the cold, but we also get quite a few days over 50F. In Dec and Jan this year we got 18 days in Dec with temps over 50F and 5 of those days were over 60F. In Jan this year we got 12 days over 50F with 3 of those over 60F. In an avg year we get 23.4 days over 50F, almost one month. Interesting that though this winter has been mild, according to our local paper it has not been record breaking at all. We fluctuate between mild winters and cold winters. The winter of 1931/32 holds that with over half the days in Dec and Jan being over 50F.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:23 AM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
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Unlike most 'cool weather lovers', I don't desire a cool summer over a cold winter. I will put up with a hot summer if it means getting a decently cold and snowy winter, but if a climate is like San Francisco where it's cool in summer but winter is nonexistent then it just won't do I'm afraid.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:57 AM
 
Location: USA East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
I don't consider us having five months of winter. Our avg high/low in November is 56F/39F, and March is 53F/34. Two of those five months would be the same as your outdoor type winter. If I'm looking at the right numbers your July averages are not far off at all from our November and March. So you would really only have the three months of winter where you couldn't do outdoor activities.

The other thing you have to remember about our weather is the large std deviation in winter vs summer. We get consistently warm summer temps with very little variation. In winter, yeah we get the cold, but we also get quite a few days over 50F. In Dec and Jan this year we got 18 days in Dec with temps over 50F and 5 of those days were over 60F. In Jan this year we got 12 days over 50F with 3 of those over 60F. In an avg year we get 23.4 days over 50F, almost one month. Interesting that though this winter has been mild, according to our local paper it has not been record breaking at all. We fluctuate between mild winters and cold winters. The winter of 1931/32 holds that with over half the days in Dec and Jan being over 50F.
You see to have a very good handle on this.

Often it seems that in these city vs city comparisons the hard data gets lost in the debates. My point is not about what city can grow what palms, how many frosts, what city is better…etc – only that if one keeps focus on the monthly mean temps - Melbourne is cool by Atlanta standards. Based on the data alone, there is no other way to spin it. I say this with all due respect – but I can’t help but notice that folks in oceanic and the higher latitude southern hemisphere climates (who understandably might not have much experience with climates outside their zones)… often seem to define climates outside the tropics and the poles by using a few months of the year (like 3) and/or record extremes. Why keep track of monthly mean temps at all then? Should we just make a climate classification based on ¼ of the climate calendar and record extremes? I tend to think most people who have handle on climate would not define climates in this way.

Just take for example that it was mentioned above that Melbourne and Atlanta have roughly the same number of months that they are warmer than each other – as if this somehow makes them similar. Yet, in a climate sense nothing could further from the truth: The coldest month in Melbourne has a mean temp of 49 F/9.5 C…while the coldest month in Atlanta has a mean temp of 43. 5 F/6.1 C (Melbourne is 5.5 F warmer). Yet, the warmest month Atlanta has a mean temp of 80 F and Melbourne just 68 F (Atlanta is 12 F warmer). The distance in the warm season is much greater than in the cool season.

The same goes for the rhythm of seasonal temps at a station like Atlanta and Melbourne: You made an excellent point above that I hadn’t really thought of in terms of the climate genetics of the subtropical Gulf/SA states – they warm quickly in spring compared to a climate like Melbourne. Even high elevation stations like Atlanta, close to the northern edge of the subtropical zone, still warm much more quickly in spring than a station like Melbourne: By May, Atlanta has a mean temp of 70 F (21 C), and for the next 5 months mean temps stay well above 70 F. Yet, many southern hemisphere stations like Melbourne, Auckland, Cape Town…etc have not a single month that the mean temp ever even reaches 70 F. By mid May - Atlanta is wamer than Melbourne is going to get all year. Melbourne has just 5 months with a mean temp of 60 F (15 C) or higher….about the same as Indianapolis, Indiana or New Haven, Connecticut . Would you consider those warm climates?

Agreed that more palms grow in Melbourne…agree that there is more frost and winters are colder in Atlanta……etc - but in the whole climate year, Melbourne is cool compared to Atlanta. The hard data show that.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:30 AM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Just take for example that it was mentioned above that Melbourne and Atlanta have roughly the same number of months that they are warmer than each other – as if this somehow makes them similar.
If you're referring to me, I was going by personal climate preferences. I like warmer climates, but I become less interested in extra warmth once the mean temperature reaches a certain point (starting at about 65°F, and definitely by 72°F). To me, Atlanta's distribution is wasting the warmth.

Quote:
By mid May - Atlanta is wamer than Melbourne is going to get all year. Melbourne has just 5 months with a mean temp of 60 F (15 C) or higher….about the same as Indianapolis, Indiana or New Haven, Connecticut . Would you consider those warm climates? Melbourne has just 5 months with a mean temp of 60 F (15 C) or higher….about the same as Indianapolis, Indiana or New Haven, Connecticut . Would you consider those warm climates?
I could just as misleading write, by late November - Atlanta is colder than Melbourne is going to get all year.

By just going by the summers and number of months above a mean temperatures above 60°F/15°C, yes I would consider Indianapolis, New Haven and Melbourne all warm climates. New Haven and Indianapolis have decently warm summers but the winters are cold, preventing them from being considered warm climates. Looking at the annual mean makes it clear why Melbourne has a warm climate and New Haven and Indianapolis do not.

Also, your numbers are wrong, Melbourne has 7 months above a mean of 15°C (6 if going by 60°F); same as Atlanta. Sure Atlanta has hotter summers, but they both provide warmth for just about as long. And Melbourne has 27 days > 30°C / year, not as many as Atlanta, but obviously still a sign of warm summers.

Quote:
Agreed that more palms grow in Melbourne…agree that there is more frost and winters are colder in Atlanta……etc - but in the whole climate year, Melbourne is cool compared to Atlanta. The hard data show that.
Ok. Let's look at the hard data for annual mean:

Melbourne mean: 15.9°C (60.6°F)
Atlanta mean: 17.0°C (62.7°F)

Melbourne's definitely cooler, but 1.1°C isn't enough that I'd say there's enough of a difference to classify one climate as cool and another as warm.

and now New Haven and Indianapolis:

New Haven (actually Bridgeport) mean: 11.3°C (52.4°F)
Indianapolis mean: 11.5°C (52.7°F)

Melbourne belongs much closer to Atlanta than to New Haven and Indianapolis. And again, you were trying to focus on the warmest months, when Melbourne would do the worst.

For someone interested in a warm climate, the difference between Melbourne and Atlanta in overall warmth is small. The choice is between whether one would prefer hotter summers at the expense of cooler winter (especially nights), or would prefer to have the warmth more evenly distributed.

Also, Melbourne is at a higher latitude than Atlanta (though lower elevation). Melbourne's latitude is the east coast equivalent of Northern Virginia (somewhere between DC and Richmond). Sydney is a bit better of a comparison, which is what the original thread was supposed to be about.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:50 AM
 
1,383 posts, read 2,105,688 times
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ATL MBN
High High Diff
52.7 56.1 -3.4
57 59 -2
65 63 2
72.8 67.5 5.3
80.3 71.4 8.9
86.9 75.6 11.3
89.5 78.6 10.9
88.4 78.4 10
82.4 75 7.4
73 68.5 4.5
63.9 62.1 1.8
54.4 57.2 -2.8

ATL MBN
Low Low Diff
34.2 42.8 -8.6
37.7 44.1 -6.4
44.2 46.4 -2.2
51.4 49.1 2.3
60.3 52.2 8.1
68 55.2 12.8
71.2 57.7 13.5
70.6 58.3 12.3
64.6 55.8 8.8
53.8 51.4 2.4
44.3 47.5 -3.2
36.5 44.4 -7.9



I started with July for Melbourne and January with Atlanta. Based on these numbers, Atlanta appears to be a warmer climate overall.

Last edited by jbird82; 02-05-2012 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,444 posts, read 11,324,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
You see to have a very good handle on this.

Often it seems that in these city vs city comparisons the hard data gets lost in the debates. My point is not about what city can grow what palms, how many frosts, what city is better…etc – only that if one keeps focus on the monthly mean temps - Melbourne is cool by Atlanta standards. Based on the data alone, there is no other way to spin it. I say this with all due respect – but I can’t help but notice that folks in oceanic and the higher latitude southern hemisphere climates (who understandably might not have much experience with climates outside their zones)… often seem to define climates outside the tropics and the poles by using a few months of the year (like 3) and/or record extremes. Why keep track of monthly mean temps at all then? Should we just make a climate classification based on ¼ of the climate calendar and record extremes? I tend to think most people who have handle on climate would not define climates in this way.

Just take for example that it was mentioned above that Melbourne and Atlanta have roughly the same number of months that they are warmer than each other – as if this somehow makes them similar. Yet, in a climate sense nothing could further from the truth: The coldest month in Melbourne has a mean temp of 49 F/9.5 C…while the coldest month in Atlanta has a mean temp of 43. 5 F/6.1 C (Melbourne is 5.5 F warmer). Yet, the warmest month Atlanta has a mean temp of 80 F and Melbourne just 68 F (Atlanta is 12 F warmer). The distance in the warm season is much greater than in the cool season.

The same goes for the rhythm of seasonal temps at a station like Atlanta and Melbourne: You made an excellent point above that I hadn’t really thought of in terms of the climate genetics of the subtropical Gulf/SA states – they warm quickly in spring compared to a climate like Melbourne. Even high elevation stations like Atlanta, close to the northern edge of the subtropical zone, still warm much more quickly in spring than a station like Melbourne: By May, Atlanta has a mean temp of 70 F (21 C), and for the next 5 months mean temps stay well above 70 F. Yet, many southern hemisphere stations like Melbourne, Auckland, Cape Town…etc have not a single month that the mean temp ever even reaches 70 F. By mid May - Atlanta is wamer than Melbourne is going to get all year. Melbourne has just 5 months with a mean temp of 60 F (15 C) or higher….about the same as Indianapolis, Indiana or New Haven, Connecticut . Would you consider those warm climates?

Agreed that more palms grow in Melbourne…agree that there is more frost and winters are colder in Atlanta……etc - but in the whole climate year, Melbourne is cool compared to Atlanta. The hard data show that.
Thanks. Based on doing a lot of reading and interacting with reading Anthony Wood blogs (our local Philly Inquirer weather guru), I've learned more in the last months. I was very bummed about the last two winters which sucked for us in the east. I forgot how nice it is when we get a mild winter. I would never ever trade my summer for a NZ winter or even Melbourne. Melbourne looks beautiful, but forget about swimming in that ocean.

Currently it is the equiv of August in Sydney. Our beach water temps would peaking now at around 74-76F, usually hitting the upper 70's at times, bar upwelling events.
I keep checking Sydney water temps and they are not impressive to me for this time in summer. The current water temp in Sydney is barely cracking 71F.

this is from this link: Coastalwatch :: surfcams :: Bondi AM&camName=BondiWater

Water temp: 22 c

Also, I found a neat site with buoy readings for various beaches in NSW. These readings look San Diego to me, going down below 68F at times and then up to around 71F ,not east coast summer.




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Old 02-05-2012, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
I don't consider us having five months of winter. Our avg high/low in November is 56F/39F, and March is 53F/34. Two of those five months would be the same as your outdoor type winter. If I'm looking at the right numbers your July averages are not far off at all from our November and March. So you would really only have the three months of winter where you couldn't do outdoor activities.

The other thing you have to remember about our weather is the large std deviation in winter vs summer. We get consistently warm summer temps with very little variation. In winter, yeah we get the cold, but we also get quite a few days over 50F. In Dec and Jan this year we got 18 days in Dec with temps over 50F and 5 of those days were over 60F. In Jan this year we got 12 days over 50F with 3 of those over 60F. In an avg year we get 23.4 days over 50F, almost one month. Interesting that though this winter has been mild, according to our local paper it has not been record breaking at all. We fluctuate between mild winters and cold winters. The winter of 1931/32 holds that with over half the days in Dec and Jan being over 50F.
May and November, would be fine if they were winter months, but they aren't. While I enjoy doing outdoor activity during winter, I still count down the days until winter is over, with your climate, the counting would involve an extra 60 days. There would also be many days in that 5 months, that would wreck havoc in my garden. Philadelphia does actually has a good trade off for winters summer imho. Somewhere like Toronto, or even NYC would be worse.

Something else to consider, is how little differences in your climate are big differences in our climate ( with only a 10C/20F range in average temps over the year). Your average November might seem mild (which it is), but we've never had a month that cold. If winter here were as cold as your average Nov, it would change the feel and look of the place.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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With regard to seasonal ups and downs, one thing that seems to jump out to me in the numbers when I see the closest matches of climates in the S. Hemisphere to a four-seasons or continental climate in the N. Hemisphere, whether they be in Tasmania, New Zealand, Argentina etc. is how diurnal range outmatches or at least minimizes seasonal differences.

For example, it doesn't seem like a Southern Hemisphere climate to get something like a 25C/15C type of day regularly and consistently in the middle of summer and 5/-5C type day regularly and consistently in the middle of winter.

A cold day's minimum in the middle of summer in a S. Hemisphere climate looks like it easily overlaps with a hot or even warm day's maximum in the middle of winter, even at reasonably high latitudes from the equator.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:19 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumbler. View Post
With regard to seasonal ups and downs, one thing that seems to jump out to me in the numbers when I see the closest matches of climates in the S. Hemisphere to a four-seasons or continental climate in the N. Hemisphere, whether they be in Tasmania, New Zealand, Argentina etc. is how diurnal range outmatches or at least minimizes seasonal differences.

For example, it doesn't seem like a Southern Hemisphere climate to get something like a 25C/15C type of day regularly and consistently in the middle of summer and 5/-5C type day regularly and consistently in the middle of winter.

A cold day's minimum in the middle of summer in a S. Hemisphere climate looks like it easily overlaps with a hot or even warm day's maximum in the middle of winter, even at reasonably high latitudes from the equator.
One thing I noticed. One marker for a sub-tropical type climate I once made up is that, if the average DIURNAL RANGE is larger than the average SEASONAL RANGE, than that climate is sub-tropical or tropical. For example, in Melbourne the average range in January is 14.0 to 25.8 - 11.8, in winter it's something like 8C. The annual average range probably around 10.5C. If the January average is 19.6C, and the July average say 10.0C, that's 9.6C, making Melbourne 'sub-tropical' in a way.

It seems more scientific to classify sub-tropical climates by their consistency...which would include climates such as Lima, which at that latitude should be tropical, but is cool enough to feel temperate.

One thing I always found peculiar was some super-continental climates, like Central Asia, tended to have small diurnal ranges but huge seasonal swings. I wonder what explains that?
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
There's green grass in the Northeastern US in early February?! I'm not sure if I've seen this. Have any photos?
Went to visit friends 20 miles outside the city today:












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