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True, but as has been said on here before, southern USA does seem to be quite cold for its latitude, snow occurs regularly quite far south, and freezing temperatures down to Florida below 30N
Just to clarify, you mean southeastern US, and certainly not southwestern. I don't think you'll find cities warmer than these coldest month averages at elevation at latitude:
Palm Springs, CA Dec (coolest month) avg high/low = 67F/44F at latitude 33.8N elevation 440Ft
Phoenix, AZ Dec 66/45F latitude 33.5N elevation 1,086ft
Yuma, AZ Dec 68/47F latitude 32.7N elevation 186ft.
Phoenix is a 1000ft higher than Baghdad and a lot warmer.
Baghdad Jan averages 60/39 at 138ft elevation and lat 33.3N
Rosario, Argentina averages 61/41 latitude 33S, elevation 102ft.
SW USA seems rather warm for the latitude compared to the rest of the world.
As far as the Southeastern US, only East Asia is colder on the winter averages, but the Southeast US has the colder record extremes. I think the South Central and SE USA is subject to the most anomalous record cold temps compared to the rest of the world.
That being said, I do think there is a big difference between a zone 8 in the UK or NW Europe, vs a zone 8 in the southern US. The winters in the southern US get more sun and more warm days than NW Europe zone 8. Also, the average winter temps, not anomalies, are much warmer.
Inland from Houston was mentioned. Well, in College Station, TX, (zone 8b) you too could have a garden look like this, without protection, if you wanted.
People in the southern US, away from the beach and coastal communities, by and large do not plant palms. It is just not part of the gardening culture.
But would a garden in zone 8 England look like this?
Even Jackson, MS with nothing to stop the polar air right from Canada doesn't look like a complete dead zone in the winter like Winterpeg or Toronto would. The interesting thing is that some states have different gardening mentalities.
Jackson could grow the same palms as Columbia, SC, but the gardening culture is very different. Very few palms inland in MS except along the coastal towns.
But even so, Jackson doesn't look very wintry in one of the coldest winters in 20 to 30 years. These photos are from this past January (the 11th) after the visit from the polar low.
I think it is a shame, as there are no east coast climates that I really like because of this.. New England, NYC and around there the winters are just too cold. Washington area has summers that are just a bit more hot and humid than I would like with winters that are cold still. By the time you get far enough south to get nicer winters, the summers are just way too humid for my tastes
I would agree that for someone that likes more moderate summer weather, the South Central US and Southeast gets too hot and humid in winter. The winter averages are warmer than China and Japan, but the temps fluctuate more here than there. Also, the record extremes are worse here.
But in reality, a zone 8 climate, which is what most of England is, with such a cool summer, is not really very enticing either. The benefit of the US is we are a lot lower in latitude. A zone 8 in the UK means that on average every winter will see a temp below 20F. That is pretty darn cold when you get such low winter averages and cool summers compared to a place like Charleston, SC or Jackson, MS.
Here is an aerial shot of College Station, TX from Google Earth taken in February 2013. It doesn't look very dead to me or that the vegetation somehow doesn't match the climate. I don't believe there are any palms native to the UK, yet there are palms native to the US South. The Upper Midwest or Canada would never look like this in February.
If people 130 miles inland wanted to plant palms as enthusiastically as the garden shown in my first two photos, imagine how green this town shown below would look in winter.
The record extremes were more what I was pointing to, it is amazing that places as far south as Miami have had winter freezes compared to their averages, and places in the deep south in SE USA get fairly regular cold snaps in winter.
Of course, although we are in zone 8/9 mostly in my area of the country, we are not as green as the deep south, but that would be expected as we are much further north, and the growth of palms and other evergreen species are not so wide here. Around southern Europe as far north as 44N in France and Italy, much of the area remains green throughout winter, though.
I personally prefer evergreen species, the stone pine and similar evergreen shrubs look nice, and palms are also good.. for what its worth, I don't think that most of the palms that we have in the UK look out of place all of the time, certainly they do in western Scotland though
They grow all kinds of tropical/subtropical plants and crops in Houston, and other cities of the Coastal South; winters are dominated by warmth, and the cold days are too infrequent and fleeting to do anything.
Jeez, you wrote a lot so I'll just refer to this post only in one matter - yeah, winters might generally feel hotter because of for example higher highs but then comes night and lows are as high as in London and then comes 2-3 days frost time that some plants can't survive and everything goes to waste.
So in the end both of these areas can barely support palm trees without cover during winters which makes them look similar. Thats it.
Jeez, you wrote a lot so I'll just refer to this post only in one matter - yeah, winters might generally feel hotter because of for example higher highs but then comes night and lows are as high as in London and then comes 2-3 days frost time that some plants can't survive and everything goes to waste.
So in the end both of these areas can barely support palm trees without cover during winters which makes them look similar. Thats it.
You are wrong. Look at my post above. The photos from College Station show a garden that gets no winter protection, and is in a colder zone than London. And those photos are from after this past winter, a very cold one. You are ignoring much higher sunshine energy due to latitude, and much warmer winter days and warmth throughout the year. Makes a big difference to palms.
According to their NWS site, the City of Miami has only recorded a few freezes (3 or 4) since 1896 when weather records started. There has not been a freeze in Miami since 1985 (almost 30 years). There has never been a temp below 0 C recorded in coastal areas of Miami - ever. This past winter 90% of Florida was frost free.
Places like your area might be in a zone 8/9 - but they are FAR from the same as a place in the subtropics in terms of growing energy. Things like heat, sun strength, length of warm temps, rainfall, ...ect play a huge role. I palm or evergreen in Florida or CA will put out 10 times the growth as one in the cool, overcast climates of NW Europe. This is why there is much commercial agro in places like the southern USA and few if any in the UK (beyond those consumed locally).
No comparison whatsoever between a zone 8 or 9 in NW Europe vs southern US.
People have huge orange trees in their backyards in places like Mobile, Savannah and Charleston, SC. I saw them in NOLA and Mobile, and have seen pictures from Charleston and Savannah. Charleston County alone had several thousand citrus trees counted by the USDA during an inventory for Citrus Greening. Citrus is grown commercially in southern Alabama. I know cause I toured one of the farms, and I will be ordering my oranges to be shipped to me this fall.
Citrus, on the other hand, does well here. A recent U.S. Department of Agriculture survey concluded there were more than 3,000 citrus trees growing in Charleston County.
Even Monroe, LA where those trees saw 15F this winter have recovered after losing all their leaves. No protection provided as the trees we well dormant by January. You don't see people with giant orange trees in their yards in the UK. Citrus growers there, and there are a few, go to a lot of effort to try and get fruit. In fact, if you go on the citrus growers forum, the people there talk about all the effort they put in. Root rot is also a problem in the UK that can take out a tree at any time. And that is from a post by a long time grower living 15 miles outside London.
I emailed that grower living outside London and got this reply a while back.
Hello Tom - and welcome to the forum!
Unfortunately, you are considerably mistaken about the climate here. Although I live only about 15 miles from central London, we are liable to frosts from October to end of April. The last two years I have had temperatures down to -10C (14F) and -12C (10F). No true citrus really survives outside in England. There are a very few specimens growing in sheltered locations in the 'heat island' of central London, and a few in favoured but protected coastal locations. I have to move all my citrus (in pots) into a winter-heated greenhouse.
Even worse, the period of summer warmth great enough to trigger growth in citrus is very short. So flowering is late and fruits often small and thick-skinned. You are right that satsumas are the best of the sweet citrus for colder areas. But if your average minimum in January is 25F, I think they will struggle unless they are against a south-facing wall or partly protected in some way. Even if you have a warmer microclimate, unless you want to risk them as an experiment, I would bring them inside if possible. Stan may well be more experienced with your conditions, so stick to any advice he has given rather than mine!
well, not necessarily all the time IMHO there are "wet sclerophyll" forests dominated by eucalyptus species in relatively cool moist parts of Australia (Tasmania and Victoria for example) where species like e. viminalis, obliqua, globulus, regnans, delagatensis, etc. grow to great heights under high rainfall conditions and in relatively dense stands and associated with tree ferns and similar moisture demanding plants growing quite happily in the understory. perhaps a similar situation exists in the redwood forest of s.w. Oregon and northern California in western north America where high rainfall and low transpiration allow sequoia sempervirens to reach great heights and whose dense stands allow a variety of moisture loving smaller plants (mosses, ferns, etc.) to grow under them.
Not sure why Eucalyptus doesn't become full rain forest here, as in parts of Southern Australia. It grows rapidly (100 ft in 20 years) and spreads rapidly,but always maintains the dry open look. It also is unable to colonise existing native bush, not liking the darkness and denseness.
I have heard that Gum caterpillars create an environment where only a few species are able to co-exist, which could play a big part.
I like the look of whatever palm trees we can grow on the south coast, myself. They often go with our seafront architecture very nicely.
The issue with comparing zone 8 climates and vegetation in the South US and UK is that a lot of palms depend not just on winter temperatures not falling low, but also on having sustained warmth and rainfall in summer, which the UK does not provide adequately. Therefore while it never gets really cold here for such trees that could be grown in the deep south US, they don't thrive due to the cool summers.
I like the look of whatever palm trees we can grow on the south coast, myself. They often go with our seafront architecture very nicely.
The issue with comparing zone 8 climates and vegetation in the South US and UK is that a lot of palms depend not just on winter temperatures not falling low, but also on having sustained warmth and rainfall in summer, which the UK does not provide adequately. Therefore while it never gets really cold here for such trees that could be grown in the deep south US, they don't thrive due to the cool summers.
Springs/autumns are an important factor as well. A warmer spring/autumn means that summer heat isn't as important.
I would agree that for someone that likes more moderate summer weather, the South Central US and Southeast gets too hot and humid in winter. The winter averages are warmer than China and Japan, but the temps fluctuate more here than there. Also, the record extremes are worse here.
I meant gets too hot and humid in "summer". And the areas where more mild summer weather exists, is too cold in the winter. Just compare Boston to Toulouse, France. I'd take Toulouse any day over Boston.
Lowest temps last winter (F)
Crestview: 15
Pensacola: 19
Panama City: 19
Tallahassee: 20
Jacksonville: 22
Gainesville: 25
Daytona Beach: 31
Orlando: 30
Melbourne: 30
Tampa: 33
Fort Myers: 37
West Palm Beach: 38
Miami: 46
Key West: 55
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