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Old 12-22-2012, 05:42 AM
 
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And NYC for Jan (data from wiki):
Average high / Average low
39.1(3.9C) 26.9(-2.8C)

It looks like some "mild" winters in Toronto are as warm as NYC but on average Toronto can't beat NYC in terms of "warmth".

I remember part of NYC (SW portion of Long Island) is zone 7b and the rest is 7a, according to the latest 2012 USDA
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:07 AM
 
Location: York
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I'm sorry but how can anywhere in Canada or the North East US have the same classification as somewhere like Houston or New Orleans. It's absolutely Ridiculous
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:35 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dean york View Post
I'm sorry but how can anywhere in Canada or the North East US have the same classification as somewhere like Houston or New Orleans. It's absolutely Ridiculous
Many a dead horse carcasses have been beaten on this topic. Not to rehash things, but subtropics is a transitional zone between temperate and tropical climates. It makes sense that if you pick examples from opposite ends of a transition, the two examples won't look much alike at all. You will get a similar ridiculous result if you pick places from opposite ends of the temperate zone such as, say, Richmond, Virginia vs Winnipeg, Manitoba.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Niagara Falls, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMarbles View Post
Many a dead horse carcasses have been beaten on this topic. Not to rehash things, but subtropics is a transitional zone between temperate and tropical climates. It makes sense that if you pick examples from opposite ends of a transition, the two examples won't look much alike at all. You will get a similar ridiculous result if you pick places from opposite ends of the temperate zone such as, say, Richmond, Virginia vs Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Exactly. Although some humid subtropical climates are significantly colder than others, they still have too many growing degree days to be considered humid continental. Comparing transition climates on opposite ends is pointless and tends to happen a lot with Cw and Dw.

It’s like saying Pescara isn’t Mediterranean compared to Los Angeles.

The -3 vs 0 isothermal argument is understandable though. I wonder what Koppen would say about this if he were still around.

Amherstberg, ON is technically humid subtropical. As for the rest of southern Ontario, it is too early to tell IMO. Maybe if the warm weather/urban islands continue to increase.

Last edited by Humid Subtropical; 12-23-2012 at 04:48 PM..
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:34 PM
 
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Amherstberg On is -2.9C (Jan daily mean). Wow ! A very tiny portion of Ontario is technically subtropical, that's good news !
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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It might not be scientific but any place you have to winterize your pool to keep the pipes from freezing is not subtropical to me...
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Niagara Falls, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It might not be scientific but any place you have to winterize your pool to keep the pipes from freezing is not subtropical to me...
Knoxville has a low of -2.6 in January. Do you not consider it subtropical?
This is like saying Florida isn't subtropical because it receives snow, Dallas is continental because its record low is -22 (compared to -25.7 in St. Catharines), and Rio De Janerio isn't tropical because it doesn't receive hurricanes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxyman View Post
No.

If we start calling places in Canada subtropical, then we may as well re-classify Melbourne as Equatorial while we are at it.
Saskatoon’s January average is -17 and Oakville’s is -4.9 (they both have the same classification). With your logic, Oakville must be equatorial as well.

People are taking the word subtropical too seriously. Like others have said in this thread, it only means the climate is too warm to be continental and too cool to be tropical. No one ever complains about Bergen and Wollongong both being oceanic (probably because it doesn't have the word “tropical” in its classification)

Last edited by Humid Subtropical; 12-23-2012 at 10:32 PM..
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humid Subtropical View Post
Knoxville has a low of -2.6 in January. Do you not consider it subtropical?
This is like saying Florida isn't subtropical because it receives snow, Dallas is continental because its record low is -22 (compared to -25.7 in St. Catharines), and Rio De Janerio isn't tropical because it doesn't receive hurricanes.

Saskatoon’s January average is -17 and Oakville’s is -4.9 (they both have the same classification). With your logic, Oakville must be equatorial as well.

People are taking the word subtropical too seriously. Like others have said in this thread, it only means the climate is too warm to be continental and too cool to be tropical. No one ever complains about Bergen and Wollongong both being oceanic (probably because it doesn't have the word “tropical” in its classification)
What I think is that some people (especially Canadians) are keen on demonstrating that their climate is not as cold as most people think it is. So there is a bit of climactic denial going on here. Granted, I don't think that the climate of southern Canada in particular is as bad as some people abroad think it is, but some of the comparisons here are a bit ridiculous.

Regarding Dallas, the record lows are perhaps once in a lifetime occurences, and they go entire winters without dropping to -10C, whereas Niagara drops to -15C and even -18C at least a few times almost every winter.

As for Oakville vs. Saskatoon, they are on opposite ends of the continental spectrum - Saskatoon having the coldest winter variant and Oakville having one of the milder variants.

A tropical climate to me is a place where you have basically endless summer temperatures year-round: basically at least 18-20C almost every day in the winter. Subtropical are places where the winter daytime temperatures are in the 10-15C range. At 8 or 9C Knoxville is borderline, and it is its elevation that makes it cooler than it might otherwise be.

Daytime winter temperatures between freezing and 10C are generally typical of temperate climate, not subtropical unless you are consistently at the higher end of that scale and frequently go above 10C.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humid Subtropical View Post
Exactly. Although some humid subtropical climates are significantly colder than others, they still have too many growing degree days to be considered humid continental. Comparing transition climates on opposite ends is pointless and tends to happen a lot with Cw and Dw.

It’s like saying Pescara isn’t Mediterranean compared to Los Angeles.

The -3 vs 0 isothermal argument is understandable though. I wonder what Koppen would say about this if he were still around.

Amherstberg, ON is technically humid subtropical. As for the rest of southern Ontario, it is too early to tell IMO. Maybe if the warm weather/urban islands continue to increase.
We are getting there ...

Environment Canada Downtown Toronto (St Catharines/Niagara Falls are warmer than Toronto):
Jan mean:
2012 -0.6C <-- Subtropical
2011 -5.2C
2010 -4.2C
2009 -7.0C
2008 -0.9C <-- Subtropical
2007 -1.7C <-- Subtropical
2006 +1.1C Yes, it's a PLUS, not a typo <-- Subtropical
2005 -5.4C
2004 -7.9C
2003 -6.6C

I couldn't find data for St Catharines/Niagara Falls.

The trend seems to move us to a transition subtropical zone
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humid Subtropical View Post
People are taking the word subtropical too seriously.
Most people have never heard of the Koppen Gospel , to them the term ''subtropical'' doesnt fit to any part of Ontario no matter what and proclaiming otherwise will only result in labeling said Koppen disciple as mentally challenged or prone to menopausal hot flashes.
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