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No one says that about Atlanta or Nashville either and they're subtropical too..
PM has a point about this though. It is all relative. One time I was in Huntsville, AL in February for a training class. No snow anywhere. Some green vegetation here and there. Temps in the upper 40's to 50's. A guy in the class was from Anchorage. He couldn't believe how clean all the cars were (no snow all rain) and that there was anything green at all. He walked around with a polo shirt on the whole week. No coat.
Charleston is in the SE USA, and you included it. I think you meant to say that winters can be very cold, not summers. And winter can have cold periods there, but not to the extent of a continental climate that has on average cold winters. The winters in SE USA have a relatively high std of deviation, but the average or normals are mild.
I would consider Scilly Isles more cool temperate or marine than warm temperate. A place that doesn't crack 20C(68F) for an average high in any month doesn't seem remotely "warm". The warmest month there has an average high of 67.5F. I think temperate climates can be "marine" (cool) or warm (subtropical dry or wet). Lumping places like LA, Naples Italy, and Charleston in with Scilly seems odd to me. Winter average high temperatures in LA and Charleston are pretty close to average summer highs in Scilly.
Charleston is subtropical. the subtropical warm temperate line is most easily see by the zone 8 region in the usda hardness zone map. the cities of Atlanta and Charlotte are right on the line of sub tropical and warm temperate. in the usa I think warm temperate is only zone 7 with cool temperate being zones 4b, 5 and 6.
Last edited by miamihurricane555; 06-13-2013 at 02:15 AM..
He DID use a different word(s) in his C classification - he called his C climates "Mild Temperate Rainy" climates. All the climates in Koppens orginal C classification had the coldest month above -3 C/27 F.....and below 64.5 F/18 C. Koppen picked -3 C becasue his reserach (at the time) showed that -3 C was the rough line seperating frozen ground from unfrozen ground in winter. There was NO mention of the word "subtropical" in his ENTIRE text.
Indeed. Cfa is Cfa no matter what label you want to attach to it. The general idea behind the climate type was that it had hot (or tropical-like) summers combined with a cool season that falls short of continental winters. For such a type the label "subtropical" makes sense, much in the same way "subarctic" denotes a place that has arctic-like winters combined with a warm season that falls short of a humid continental summer. Both subarctic and subtropical are one grade away from arctic and tropical, respectively.
The fact that the popular culture definition of the phrase departs from the scientific one is unfortunate, and in all fairness "near-tropical" and "outer-tropical" would be better descriptions for the pop-culture/media connotations, which highlight places like the Bahamas and Florida.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
PM has a point about this though. It is all relative. One time I was in Huntsville, AL in February for a training class. No snow anywhere. Some green vegetation here and there. Temps in the upper 40's to 50's. A guy in the class was from Anchorage. He couldn't believe how clean all the cars were (no snow all rain) and that there was anything green at all. He walked around with a polo shirt on the whole week. No coat.
Thanks for the anecdote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous92
No one says "Gee, let's go to continental New York in January to have some fun in the sun" either.
So I guess it isn't anything lol.
And no one ever goes to NYC to have fun in the snow because most of the time there isn't even any on the ground, let alone enough to sled in or anything. Even Chicago isn't great for sledding but there is some amount on the ground most of the winter, so I guess you could have a snowball fight. For dependable snow deep enough to ski cross-country and build big quinzhees the Dfb and Dfc zones are where it's at, with temperatures very far removed from NYC's winters.
Of course all of this is assuming an average winter. In 2011 NYC was suitable for fun in the snow (when it wasn't in thaw mode anyway ) and in 2012 even the warmer part of the Dfb zone was missing out on the action most of the winter.
Indeed. Cfa is Cfa no matter what label you want to attach to it. The general idea behind the climate type was that it had hot (or tropical-like) summers combined with a cool season that falls short of continental winters. For such a type the label "subtropical" makes sense, much in the same way "subarctic" denotes a place that has arctic-like winters combined with a warm season that falls short of a humid continental summer. Both subarctic and subtropical are one grade away from arctic and tropical, respectively.
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I think that might be incorrect if you look at the Koppen climate map:
If you look at Koppens climate classification map his C group includes climates like Seattle, London, Boston, all of south Island New Zealand, Tasmania, the coast of Alaska…etc….surly these locations had anything but hot – or tropical like summers. Calling London, Alaska, Boston or south Island “subtropical” seems even more absurd than calling NYC subtropical. At least in NYC there is a season of true near tropical weather.
I have Koppen text right here...and in the description of his C climates it says the following: “ C = Temperate Rainy Climates = coldest monthly mean temp above -3 C but below 18 C. The line of -3 C supposedly rough corresponds to where there is frozen ground in winter as well as the line depicting 30 days or less (southward) with continues snow cover”.
That seems to fit NYC very well - occasional snow in the 3 winter months, but the ground never freezes and snow cover never last long.
I think that might be incorrect if you look at the Koppen climate map:
If you look at Koppens climate classification map his C group includes climates like Seattle, London, Boston, all of south Island New Zealand, Tasmania, the coast of Alaska…etc….surly these locations had anything but hot – or tropical like summers. Calling London, Alaska, Boston or south Island “subtropical” seems even more absurd than calling NYC subtropical. At least in NYC there is a season of true near tropical weather.
And no one ever goes to NYC to have fun in the snow because most of the time there isn't even any on the ground, let alone enough to sled in or anything. Even Chicago isn't great for sledding but there is some amount on the ground most of the winter, so I guess you could have a snowball fight. For dependable snow deep enough to ski cross-country and build big quinzhees the Dfb and Dfc zones are where it's at, with temperatures very far removed from NYC's winters.
Of course all of this is assuming an average winter. In 2011 NYC was suitable for fun in the snow (when it wasn't in thaw mode anyway ) and in 2012 even the warmer part of the Dfb zone was missing out on the action most of the winter.
Perhaps the eastern US could divided into 4 climates:
1) Cfa climates where winters always too mild for snow
2) Cfa climates where it can sometimes get fun in the snow
3) Dfb climates where it usually get fun in the snow
4) Dfb climates where winters always cold enough for snow
I could put numbers, but you can get the idea. (1) would have a coldest month of maybe 6°C. This system would probably only work in eastern and central North America.
And no one ever goes to NYC to have fun in the snow because most of the time there isn't even any on the ground, let alone enough to sled in or anything. Even Chicago isn't great for sledding but there is some amount on the ground most of the winter, so I guess you could have a snowball fight. For dependable snow deep enough to ski cross-country and build big quinzhees the Dfb and Dfc zones are where it's at, with temperatures very far removed from NYC's winters.
Of course all of this is assuming an average winter. In 2011 NYC was suitable for fun in the snow (when it wasn't in thaw mode anyway ) and in 2012 even the warmer part of the Dfb zone was missing out on the action most of the winter.
Again a good point. Places like Harbin and Minneapolis can have winter festivals with ice skating and snow and outdoor ice sculptures. Philly does not meet the designation, and neither does NY, of being a winter city. The average temp in the coldest month is above freezing.
Perhaps the eastern US could divided into 4 climates:
1) Cfa climates where winters always too mild for snow
2) Cfa climates where it can sometimes get fun in the snow
3) Dfb climates where it usually get fun in the snow
4) Dfb climates where winters always cold enough for snow
I could put numbers, but you can get the idea. (1) would have a coldest month of maybe 6°C. This system would probably only work in eastern and central North America.
Only a huge swath of the Eastern US (almost anything along I-70, 80, 90 or 94 with enough rainfall) is Dfa, and there are a few places in the Eastern US with a Cfb (parts of the New England shoreline and areas in the higher elevations of KY, NC, TN, VA and WV).
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) and in 2012 even the warmer part of the Dfb zone was missing out on the action most of the winter.
