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Grapefruit grows well in a lot of places but is at its highest table quality in places with the longest duration of hot days and warm nights, high humidity, and fairly warm (or nonexistent) winter; it has the second highest overall heat requirement out of all common commercial citrus (#1 is lime, especially key lime). The best grapefruits in the US are grown in the southern tip of Texas and deep into central Florida.
Sure you guys can go on and on and on about hardiness zones, lack of frost, etc but I'm willing to bet Cape Town, New Zealand, and South Australia are filled with sour inferior grapefruits. Total heat accumulation and length of the warm season are just as important as markers of "subtropicalness" as mildness in winter and lack of severe frost. A frostless oceanic climate with a lukewarm summer is not subtropical imo
I think you're fighting a straw man. I said grapefruit seem to grow fine in Cape Town despite not being regarded as a subtropical climate in South Africa. Subtropical climates in South Africa are generally understood to be coastal areas from about East London northwards, plus the Lowveld and Limpopo valley (roughly the native range of the Nile crocodile btw). Greysrigging said they're normally thought of as starting north of Sydney in the east and north of Perth in the west. Joe90 said he doesn't regard NZ as having subtropical climates.
The use of tropical fruits is inappropriate to classify subtropical. The zone for me includes areas where palm trees and citrus fruits normally don't grow ie Tennessee, Arkansas and Virginia.
To put it another way just can't see Melbourne (and heavens Sydney!) as oceanic. They are too warm for it.
Grapefruit doesn't grow there because its poorly adapted. Just like it does poorly in marine influenced California.
Why put all of the weight in ecological activity at the coldest time of the year? Why is it any more significant than the total sum of ecological activity annually?
Far southern Oklahoma has a long enough warm season to support the American Alligator. Seriously doubt Tasmania has enough heat to support crocodilians. How many crops of corn, cotton, and peanuts can be produced in lukewarm NZ compared to SE USA or southern China? One can cherry pick any number of examples beyond citrus and avocados.
I don't - that's way subtropical environments are on a sliding scale. Higher levels of activity in the coldest months demonstrate climates that slow down less, and is a tangible real world feature.. Crocodiles and grapefruit just represent the higher end of that scale.
Cotton, corn, and peanuts can and do grow in NZ, although obviously not to the levels of hot summer climates - really just a matter of degree, rather than the complete absence of genera.
Avocado and citrus (and many other species not discussed) represent climates that do have higher levels of activity than many hot summer climates. Mild winters are only part of the picture - summer still need to be at the warmer end of the cool scale.
The use of tropical fruits is inappropriate to classify subtropical. The zone for me includes areas where palm trees and citrus fruits normally don't grow ie Tennessee, Arkansas and Virginia.
To put it another way just can't see Melbourne (and heavens Sydney!) as oceanic. They are too warm for it.
Aussies wouldn't normally use the terms snow, ice and frost in the same sentance as the word 'subtropical'. Its as simple as that. But we would use the words coconut, banana and mango in the same sentance as 'subtropical'
We use words like 'warm temperate' to describe Sydney and Melbourne, although thats a bit of a stretch re Melbourne, some would say 'cool temperate'.
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Originally Posted by greysrigging
Aussies wouldn't normally use the terms snow, ice and frost in the same sentance as the word 'subtropical'. Its as simple as that. But we would use the words coconut, banana and mango in the same sentance as 'subtropical'
We use words like 'warm temperate' to describe Sydney and Melbourne, although thats a bit of a stretch re Melbourne, some would say 'cool temperate'.
Why would those describe subtropical to you when those are all tropical fruits?
Aussies wouldn't normally use the terms snow, ice and frost in the same sentance as the word 'subtropical'. Its as simple as that. But we would use the words coconut, banana and mango in the same sentance as 'subtropical'
We use words like 'warm temperate' to describe Sydney and Melbourne, although thats a bit of a stretch re Melbourne, some would say 'cool temperate'.
Places that average at least 10 C in the coldest month generally do not have snow, ice, or frost. Sydney has roughly the same average temperature as Los Angeles, which no one in their right mind would describe as not-subtropical.
Why would those describe subtropical to you when those are all tropical fruits?
Because many plants will grow outside their native climates to a certain degree. Therefore the more adaptable tropical fruit will grow satisfactorily in climates that are not tropical but are reasonably close ie subtropical.
But whether you agree with it or not, this is what is usually meant by "subtropical" in the context of Australia and South Africa and it doesn't necessarily translate well to the NH.
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Originally Posted by Bisfbath
Because many plants will grow outside their native climates to a certain degree. Therefore the more adaptable tropical fruit will grow satisfactorily in climates that are not tropical but are reasonably close ie subtropical.
But whether you agree with it or not, this is what is usually meant by "subtropical" in the context of Australia and South Africa and it doesn't necessarily translate well to the NH.
Aussies wouldn't normally use the terms snow, ice and frost in the same sentance as the word 'subtropical'. Its as simple as that. But we would use the words coconut, banana and mango in the same sentance as 'subtropical'
We use words like 'warm temperate' to describe Sydney and Melbourne, although thats a bit of a stretch re Melbourne, some would say 'cool temperate'.
If you think Melbourne is cool temperate what do you think Vancouver and London are? I consider Vancouver as cool temperate and a totally different climate than Melbourne.
If Perth is not subtropical then the line would be below Corpus Christi and Gainesville Florida if that standard is used in the US. A very small zone indeed.
Melbourne might be cool in Australia, but it's not cool by worldwide standards.
If Tasmania was part of Canada everybody would be calling it subtropical.
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