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of course there won't be any conclusion when there are people giving up saying "entitled opinions" because they ran out of facts to talk about... the whole purpose of a debate is to exchange facts and reach a conclusion or compromise.
I think this thread is better for just debating subjectively - To me, it's just matter of warmer Cfb climates that are mild year round and can grow a wide range of plants because of that mildness vs colder Cfa climates that have hot humid conditions (tropical like) for part of the year
I say mildness wins, because the benefit of that mildness, is much more tangible
Heathrow has around 250 days between the last and first frost, but in the UHI that's more like 320+ days, as central London receives fewer than 10 days with frost a year, mostly clustered together.
The first and last frost dates are quite misleading though, you could have a frost in November and one in March, but not have any in between. You could have a frost every day between November and March, and both places would have the same growing season length.
The UK method is 5 days with means below 5c, not highs. Using that method, Heathrow has a growing season of around 315-330 days, while I can't imagine the growing season in the UHI would even end unless it was a particularly long lasting cold spell.
For Houston, what you say applies only if you are using data from Bush Airport. At the city's other airport, Hobby, the average first freeze date will be at the end of December, going into January. Definitely more than a week's difference in that case.
Why do you continually make accounts after being banned? It is a breach of the site policy.
Heathrow has around 250 days between the last and first frost, but in the UHI that's more like 320+ days, as central London receives fewer than 10 days with frost a year, mostly clustered together.
The first and last frost dates are quite misleading though, you could have a frost in November and one in March, but not have any in between. You could have a frost every day between November and March, and both places would have the same growing season length.
The UK method is 5 days with means below 5c, not highs. Using that method, Heathrow has a growing season of around 315-330 days, while I can't imagine the growing season in the UHI would even end unless it was a particularly long lasting cold spell.
Growing season here would never end, if the 5C threshold was used. 5C seems quite a cold temperature to define the growing season.
Under the Köppen–Geiger classification, These climates usually occur on the eastern coasts and eastern sides of continents, from 25 to 45 latitude,...
This is not my definition, which is only valid for the USA. For me, subtropical is on the east coast, up to the southern part of North Carolina. To the west is south is Atlanta, to Jackson Florida, to the west further, it is Birmingham to Tallahassee, and further, from Shreveport to New Orleans.
Feel free to disagree as this is only my opinion.
I agree with the northernmost designation starting somewhere in north carolina, I look at coastal water temperatures as well. The warmer ocean currents in the southeast raise air temperatures during winter, and you get the storms and instability in the summer from them. there are water readings of 67 at diamond shoals and 71 degrees near edisto. Huge differences seem to start below virginia in coastal temperatures and other factors
Especially starting in southern north carolina and south carolina you really see the big differences, temps will be highs of 47 today in charleston and in the 60s next week in wilmington myrtle beach and charleston, wilmington is cold this weekend but looking at the 60s next week. Wilmington nc Myrtle beach and charleston is just about a 5-7 hour drive away for our family in DC, we are at 20 in DC today and looking at lows of 9 degrees and snow and ice through the start of next week in DC.
that would be the best case scenario for literally 150 miles or more in any direction (even to the south) because of UHI. taking the average of the metro, it would be less than 230. more like ~210.
Maybe, but what happens 150 miles away isn't really relevant in the discussion of NYC's climate.
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no, you were trying to compare Altanta's growing season to NYC which, given the far inland location and higher elevation, isn't a particularly fair fight. now if NYC's growing season was for some reason longer than say Charleston, SC then i would do a double take but of course that is not the case.
How isn't it fair? Atlanta has a clear latitude advantage, but NYC has a coastal advantage. The fact that their "growing seasons" are the same length is noteworthy. It's something most probably wouldn't expect, since NYC is the North Pole and all.
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but yes NYC ended up being higher than i expected. though i suspect Boston might be surprisingly high as well because there appears to be a small chunk of USDA 7a in the city due to UHI. of course it wouldn't be as high as NYC but i'm thinking in the densest part of the city it may peak around 200.
I think Boston should be on par with the NYC's coastal suburbs, but that's just me guessing.
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by what logic?? 4 months count as tropical, 5 months count as arctic.
Under Köppen's system, the same system you're actively refuting.
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lol i wouldn't say much closer, NYC (40.72°) is only ~295 miles (1° * 69 miles, 4.28°) from the halfway point between the equator and the north pole (45°). what would be the closest equivalent koppen subarctic climate to the equator? probably Yakutsk (62°), ~1173 miles (17°) north of the halfway point between the equator and the north pole... much further from the halfway point than NYC.
Yet, climatologically speaking, NYC (40N) has about as much in common with Montreal (45N) during the winter as it does with Tallahassee, FL (30N).
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we aren't talking about which climate is preferable, its about finding the best definition using factual data we have. part of that is coming to the root of the issue, what exactly does "subtropical" mean? it seems to me koppen's "subtropical" overlaps a number of areas around the world that are not only far away geographically from real tropical climates but also climatically share little in common with true tropical climates for the majority of the year. in other words, as an annual average they are not tropical. where the corresponding "subarctic" does not have this problem. all koppen subarctic climates are, as an annual average, arctic. this is fact. whether or not it has enough significance is debatable, but it is all factual. and anything that isn't factual will be corrected.
of course there won't be any conclusion when there are people giving up saying "entitled opinions" because they ran out of facts to talk about... the whole purpose of a debate is to exchange facts and reach a conclusion or compromise.
I'm not worried about what's deemed "subtropical", the term is subjective. Personally, I view subtropical climates as being clearly distinct from tropical climates, aside from those that are borderline tropical like Brisbane and Tampa.
I'd like to see thermal thresholds that make sense though. The -3C isotherm is relevant, as that dictates snow cover (supposedly). 10C is relevant, many plants begin growing at that temperature. I think seasonal means should be used as opposed to the "coldest month" and "warmest month" thing.
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NYC, Philly, and DC are considered humid subtropical only by koppen...
Trewartha's definition makes all of them Temperate Continental...
if you want, you could say they are all borderline but you can't say one definition is firmly subtropical unless the other definition is considered firmly temperate continental.
and from the looks of it, NYC is held more firmly as Temperate Continental (2.3°F away from subtropical) under Trewartha's definition than it is held subtropical under koppen (0.7°F away from continental). i'm being silly now but even if you take the average of both definitions, NYC is continental.
Well, if you must nitpick, Köppen's subtropical actually begins at -3C, not 0C. Holding the likes of NYC more firmly as humid subtropical.
The -3C isotherm is significant in that it's the point in which areas begin to retain snow cover, but that was observed in Europe which is typically cloudier and has weaker sunshine and shorter winter days than much of the U.S., so I'm not sure if -3C is relevant for North America. 0C is arbitrary, but it's the freezing point so I get why it's often preferred over -3C.
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i was just wondering about 235 in particular because i could not find that value... ahh, its on wikipedia...
though i imagine 235 would not be accurate as an average for the entire metro, especially going by this map:
hey going by that chart it is, well 183-203 and probably leaning closer to 203, maybe 195ish...
and looks like even a few parts of Long Island drop below 183.
and idk, looks like Manhattan falls under the 183-203 threshold, not sure whats up with that.
That's odd.
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thats fine, but i can't imagine a scheme that makes more sense and also keeps NYC as subtropical...
That's fair, and is why I prefer lettering schemes over specific names. Temperate, warm temperate, cool continental, etc. is all a bit much.
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kind of scary when you say a place at 51.5°N is more subtropical than a place that barely qualifies as subtropical under koppen and is located at 40.7°N...
also i would like to note, the method for calculating the growing season in the UK (daily highs less than 5°C for 5 days i think) is different from the US (first freeze) so it would be interesting to see how London's growing season measures up to NYC when using the US method. of course using one for the other won't make much sense given the anemic nature of the UK's climate.
I don't agree with London being more "subtropical" in nature than NYC, it's a cooler climate at a higher latitude. I think growing degree days should be considered, but I'm not sure if it's a universal concept.
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no they don't, because different parts of the city have a different building density and distance from the water.
though 235 might be a fair average, it would be for one of the warmer areas of the city, the average for the entire 5 boroughs is probably under 235.
NYC is largely urban, so I imagine it's mostly in the 235 range. Any potential cooler sections are all at the outer reaches of the city.
Maybe, but what happens 150 miles away isn't really relevant in the discussion of NYC's climate.
How isn't it fair? Atlanta has a clear latitude advantage, but NYC has a coastal advantage. The fact that their "growing seasons" are the same length is noteworthy. It's something most probably wouldn't expect, since NYC is the North Pole and all.
I think Boston should be on par with the NYC's coastal suburbs, but that's just me guessing.
Under Köppen's system, the same system you're actively refuting.
Yet, climatologically speaking, NYC (40N) has about as much in common with Montreal (45N) during the winter as it does with Tallahassee, FL (30N).
I'm not worried about what's deemed "subtropical", the term is subjective. Personally, I view subtropical climates as being clearly distinct from tropical climates, aside from those that are borderline tropical like Brisbane and Tampa.
I'd like to see thermal thresholds that make sense though. The -3C isotherm is relevant, as that dictates snow cover (supposedly). 10C is relevant, many plants begin growing at that temperature. I think seasonal means should be used as opposed to the "coldest month" and "warmest month" thing.
Well, if you must nitpick, Köppen's subtropical actually begins at -3C, not 0C. Holding the likes of NYC more firmly as humid subtropical.
The -3C isotherm is significant in that it's the point in which areas begin to retain snow cover, but that was observed in Europe which is typically cloudier and has weaker sunshine and shorter winter days than much of the U.S., so I'm not sure if -3C is relevant for North America. 0C is arbitrary, but it's the freezing point so I get why it's often preferred over -3C.
That's odd.
That's fair, and is why I prefer lettering schemes over specific names. Temperate, warm temperate, cool continental, etc. is all a bit much.
I don't agree with London being more "subtropical" in nature than NYC, it's a cooler climate at a higher latitude. I think growing degree days should be considered, but I'm not sure if it's a universal concept.
NYC is largely urban, so I imagine it's mostly in the 235 range. Any potential cooler sections are all at the outer reaches of the city.
How London is more subtropical I don't understand. Its winter temps are marginally considered subtropical and they do not see any warm days in winter like NYC. also NYC has tropical summers and borderline subtropical winters under koppen so therefore NYC is more subtropical.
How London is more subtropical I don't understand. Its winter temps are marginally considered subtropical and they do not see any warm days in winter like NYC. also NYC has tropical summers and borderline subtropical winters under koppen so therefore NYC is more subtropical.
Neither are subtropical, but you can grow a lot more subtropical plants without protection in London than you can in NYC.
that would be the best case scenario for literally 150 miles or more in any direction (even to the south) because of UHI. taking the average of the metro, it would be less than 230. more like ~210.
no, you were trying to compare Altanta's growing season to NYC which, given the far inland location and higher elevation, isn't a particularly fair fight. now if NYC's growing season was for some reason longer than say Charleston, SC then i would do a double take but of course that is not the case.
but yes NYC ended up being higher than i expected. though i suspect Boston might be surprisingly high as well because there appears to be a small chunk of USDA 7a in the city due to UHI. of course it wouldn't be as high as NYC but i'm thinking in the densest part of the city it may peak around 200.
by what logic?? 4 months count as tropical, 5 months count as arctic.
lol i wouldn't say much closer, NYC (40.72°) is only ~295 miles (1° * 69 miles, 4.28°) from the halfway point between the equator and the north pole (45°). what would be the closest equivalent koppen subarctic climate to the equator? probably Yakutsk (62°), ~1173 miles (17°) north of the halfway point between the equator and the north pole... much further from the halfway point than NYC.
we aren't talking about which climate suits your fancy, its about objectively finding the best definition using factual data we have. part of that is coming to the root of the issue, what exactly does "subtropical" mean? it seems koppen's "subtropical" overlaps a number of areas around the world that are not only far away geographically from real tropical climates but also climatically share little in common with true tropical climates for the majority of the year. in other words, as an annual average they are not tropical. where the corresponding "subarctic" does not have this problem. all koppen subarctic climates are, as an annual average, arctic. this is fact. whether or not it has enough significance is debatable, but it is all factual. and anything that isn't factual will be corrected.
of course there won't be any conclusion when there are people giving up saying "entitled opinions" because they ran out of facts to talk about... the whole purpose of a debate is to exchange facts and reach a conclusion or compromise.
NYC, Philly, and DC are considered humid subtropical only by koppen...
Trewartha's definition makes all of them Temperate Continental...
if you want, you could say they are all borderline but you can't say one definition is firmly subtropical unless the other definition is considered firmly temperate continental.
and from the looks of it, NYC is held more firmly as Temperate Continental (2.3°F away from subtropical) under Trewartha's definition than it is held subtropical under koppen (0.7°F away from continental). i'm being silly now but even if you take the average of both definitions, NYC is continental.
i was just wondering about 235 in particular because i could not find that value... ahh, its on wikipedia...
though i imagine 235 would not be accurate as an average for the entire metro, especially going by this map:
hey going by that chart it is, well 183-203 and probably leaning closer to 203, maybe 195ish...
and looks like even a few parts of Long Island drop below 183.
and idk, looks like Manhattan falls under the 183-203 threshold, not sure whats up with that.
thats fine, but i can't imagine a scheme that makes more sense and also keeps NYC as subtropical...
kind of scary when you say a place at 51.5°N is more subtropical than a place that barely qualifies as subtropical under koppen and is located at 40.7°N...
also i would like to note, the method for calculating the growing season in the UK (daily highs less than 5°C for 5 days i think) is different from the US (first freeze) so it would be interesting to see how London's growing season measures up to NYC when using the US method. of course using one for the other won't make much sense given the anemic nature of the UK's climate.
because of the map above...
no they don't, because different parts of the city have a different building density and distance from the water.
though 235 might be a fair average, it would be for one of the warmer areas of the city, the average for the entire 5 boroughs is probably under 235.
no, it doesn't. Cincinnati is Humid Continental according to koppen (30.85°F on a 32°F threshold, 1.15°F under). technically Cincinnati is more Humid Continental than NYC is subtropical (32.6°F on a 32°F threshold, 0.6°F above) so yea my statement made sense... and that would be one of the warmest places in Ohio. i actually had Columbus in mind, which still has a slightly higher January record high than NYC.
i'm still not sure what you are getting at. are you saying there are no broadleaf evergreens native to the US South that aren't native to DC or NYC? ...because there are plenty (such as the Live Oak, hugging USDA 8b closely)
it would help to know why you believe something is the case...
no your point was that all of these broadleaf evergreens are also native to DC and NYC, turns out 2 of the 3 you mentioned weren't even evergreen... as for weather patterns, idk seems like NYC would be somewhere in between Virginia Beach and Chicago, leaning toward Virginia Beach mostly because it is after all geographically closer... (~325 miles vs ~750 miles)
yea my jaw dropped when i first saw the native range of the Red Maple.
its plants like this having massive ranges that make it difficult to classify the climate of regions such as the eastern US from a vegetation standpoint alone. because taking all of the plants into consideration, its a blur...
Out of all the humid subtropical climates in the world, wouldn't you say the east coast of Australia has the best of the bunch? And compared to the US east coast, well there really is no comparison when it comes to winter and being guaranteed what kind of temperatures you can expect. I'm always surprised that foreign winter travelers to Orlando (Disney World) write in their blogs how shocked they were when they had temps in the 30's at night and 50's during the day there, or even high temps in the 60'sF. Just because the avg high in Orlando is 70F in January, don't count on it lol. I thought it was well known that the US east is quite prone to Arctic outbreaks every winter. Seems like it always makes major news in Europe anyway if the last two winters are anything to go by.
Cities like Sydney, Newcastle, Coffs Harbour, Brisbane, etc. have mild record lows, very stable winter temps, no chance for -20 to -30F anomalies in winter, etc. etc. They can grow far more tender and exotic vegetation than any equivalent avg temp winter climate in the Southeastern US. Houston cannot grow what Sydney can, neither New Orleans. Orlando can't grow what Brisbane can. And Miami cannot grow what Townsville can, etc. etc.
US eastern humid subtropical climates can't hold a candle to the Australian ones imo. When garden forum members from the South see what grows at the Sydney Botanical gardens they are floored. It looks more like Miami without the coco palms.
I'm pretty sure every single winter the eastern US experiences up to -20F anomalies on either the avg high or avg low.
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