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LOL, evergreen broadleaf does no equate to tender. There are plenty of tropical deciduous trees. The drier/more seasonal parts of tropical Mexico, the Caribbean, etc would also have a "low" number of evergreen trees. Also the maps do not account for monocots and gymnosperms (yes pine trees can be tropical/subtropical). Are you really comparing the biological productivity of England with Florida?
Also, almost all of the evergreen stuff from eastern China/Japan will grow in the equivalent zone in the southeast (and survive random arctic cold).
Lol, what flowers in the middle of winter in the Southeast? Camellias native from China and Japan. Obviously the southern Mag does not. What native flora flowers in the middle of winter there?
Again, I'm not challenging the notion that the U.S. southeast is more subtropical than other areas of the word, I'm just dispelling the ridiculous, non-scientific method of comparing pictures between the southeast and northeast in the winter time looking the same as far as greenery. They are not.
Also, this method of judging an area of how subtropical it can be by pure broadleaf vegetation can have its flaws as Asagi mentions above. Also, Southern coastal Europe and even non-desert North Africa, which supports an abundance of native flora still doesn't have but one (1) species of naturally occurring palm. The southeast and South Carolina in particular, has FOUR species of palm growing in an area of roughly 30,000 square miles. Compare this to the majority of the continent of Europe which is largely subtropical and northern Africa, which is vast in its own right. Could a subtropical/tropical genus, Arecaceae, that's naturally present in an area as small as South Carolina mean it's more subtropical than the entire coast line of southern Europe and Northern Africa? No!
See what I'm getting at there? ^
The comparisons with Southeast China and southern Japan are interesting. The very southern tip of Japan and the islands off of the island of Japan are tropical with mangroves occurring.
Shock-wave5, I came across those maps as well and haven't even had a chance to dissect them. Theres a lot of great info in these last few pages and I wish I had more time to comment! Ah!!
Location: João Pessoa,Brazil(The easternmost point of Americas)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90
I use the humble potato as my personal definition of subtropical climate. If a place can reliably grow/crop potatoes through winter, I consider it subtropical.
I wouldn't use the presence of evergreen broadleaf species alone as an indicator of as subtropical climate, as even some biome 5 species (NZ Nothofagus species for example) are capable of surviving 3-4 months with a mean temperature below freezing.
Winter flowering evergreen broadleaf species, that have evolved methods of winter pollination are a better indication
I think the same as you.
For example,in South America the Two Evergreen Nothofagus Species(Nothofagus Betuloides and Nothofagus Nitida) grows in Hasher Climates,where temperatures can fall down to -30C And they Grow side by side with Deciduous Nothofagus.
And to me The Eastern Asia Broadleaf Evergreens are Cold Hardy than the North America Ones.
For example,in South America the Two Evergreen Nothofagus Species(Nothofagus Betuloides and Nothofagus Nitida) grows in Hasher Climates,where temperatures can fall down to -30C And they Grow side by side with Deciduous Nothofagus.
And to me The Eastern Asia Broadleaf Evergreens are Cold Hardy than the North America Ones.
Yes, there's quite a variation within evergreen broadleaf species. Some tough ones in NZ, but also ones that won't survive below about 0/-1C., as well as a much bigger group, that are in trouble at -3/-4C.
Don't you think that is kind of a contradiction though to claim that the Northeast is not as green as the Southeast at the same time saying using greenery has its flaws. Also, are you not struck by their slide stating that zone 9 and 10 southern England would map as biome 5 while the Southeast US does not? Summer heat in the Southeast cannot overcome the extreme cold every decade or so.
I guess I'm looking for the simple answer as to why deciduous trees dominate down into central FL whereas other humid subtropical climates of the world they do not.
It's contradictory when applying southeastern U.S. to southern Europe, as I mentioned with the example in palms. As far as a close comparison, the closest we can get is between the SE and NE: They're on the same continent in the same hemisphere, same mountain range, same cold fronts, etc... The end result is there are different results in broadleaf evergreens in the north and south. Comparing a dry Mediterranean climate to a humid subtropical climate in two different continents isn't the same. Neither are the comparisons you made with Rome, Italy or my examples of using the lack of native palms to Europe and the native palms to the southeast U.S. The same thing can be said for the lack of flowering plants in the Southeast as opposed to southeast Asia. What does it matter if most of the plants grown in southeast Asia can grow here, and in particular, an inland area at 34 degrees north? I'm mainly trying to diffuse the notion that The SE is not any greener than the NE, which is why it's subtropical and the northeast is not. There's a reason why most plants that grow in southeast Asia can grow in the southeast and not in the northeast. Also, I know next to nothing of the areas Asagi mentions, but I guarantee you there are deciduous forests with evergreen undergrowth as well. Just like the southeast U.S. Sorry for the jumbled convoluted responses, but its the best I can do at the moment to contribute to this discussion lol
Great website that shows what I have been trying to say about China vs the Southeast US, and why the Southeast is heavily dominated by deciduous. From UC at Davis.
This part of the lecture shows just how broadleaf evergreen China is compared to US, and also how much more broadleaf Australia and NZ are.
You have to go halfway down FL to get a true broadleaf evergreen forest
This is the best bit that aptly describes why the Southeast is deciduous
The part about every decade or so only a few broadleaf being able to survive the very cold air.
This is why the South is dominated by deciduous. Has nothing to do with soil or anything else.
This is a rather interesting part talking about how Western Europe could be mapped biome 5 (evergreen), but that it lacks natives. Also talks about the lack of a mountain range protecting the eastern US from Canadian Arctic air.
And finally a forest in NC, Duke Forest. This is right near Raleigh.
Looks no different than PA by any measure if you take out the conifers, but looks very much like NJ or DE.
Interesting, although the map is too broad imo. None the less great find I have a great link that has tons of maps such as the ones smith posted but at least 30 of them including one on winter pollinating plants as Joe asked for. As for the pic I have posted plenty of pics that don't look like that and some that have broadleaf evergreens growing similar to your March pic. We all agree though southern forests aren't all the same monotony. You will have area of forest mixed with pines and decidous, then areas of pure pines, then areas of pure decidous, then areas of decidous/broadleaf and areas of pine/broadleaf, it's not all the same.
Last edited by muslim12; 03-16-2016 at 02:55 PM..
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