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Europe definitely won the "highest latitudes, best climates" category in natures lottery. The eastern half of North America all the way down to Florida came in last in that lottery imo. Worst geography for winter stability on the planet.
People go on and on about Miami being tropical, well look at other cities at their latitude and at sea level. Those other cities have never ever gone below freezing. Places like Karachi (went to 32F not below), Dubai, Bahrain, Hong Kong, etc etc. Not only has Miami gone down to 27F, it has gone down to 32F or below in Dec, Jan, Feb and even March.
If only we could shift Europe 5 degrees further south, then it would have some truly great climates IMO. Southern England would be at 45N and probably be about 12C/5C in January and 27C/17C in July. Coastal France would be very nice along the west coast, and the Riviera would be similar to Valencia currently. Then southern Spain and Greece would have climates that are truly warm in winter instead of just very mild.
Yeah, I think there is a clear difference in certain climates that can be classed as cfa and dfa.
Philadelphia, NYC, DC etc are all clearly continental to me, albeit on the warmer side of continental. Philadelphia has a difference of 26C between its average max in January and July - how can anyone claim that this is not a continental trait and that it is subtropical!? The figures are similar with DC and NYC too.
I would class those three climates as 'warm continental' (I think humid continental is misleading). Chicago for me is probably the stereotypical continental climate around the middle ground - colder winters and warm summers, and then you have cities like Toronto and Winnipeg that are at the colder end of the scale.
Exactly. These geography types or climatologists need to up their game and create a more detailed and accurate system. There should be no grade school or high school students anywhere in America taught that Philadelphia is subtropical. They told us we were cold winter, warm summer continental. They never used Koppen or anything else in my schooling. And they never used the term "hot" either. They described summer as "warm" and it makes sense to me. We have no month with an avg high above 32.2C.
Exactly. These geography types or climatologists need to up their game and create a more detailed and accurate system. There should be no grade school or high school students anywhere in America taught that Philadelphia is subtropical. They told us we were cold winter, warm summer continental. They never used Koppen or anything else in my schooling. And they never used the term "hot" either. They described summer as "warm" and it makes sense to me. We have no month with an avg high above 32.2C.
At school in geography I remember teachers telling us about the gulf stream and how we had a 'maritime climate' that is mild and protected from cold air by the air masses from the ocean that hold more warmth. Then I remember we studied continental climates and NYC was one example of being continental due to the prevailing winds coming from inland instead of the ocean
Why even bother with that classification system? It is just so wrong to call this area where I live "subtropical" as it renders the term useless then when applied in a such a broad manner. We have no growing season in the winter. There has to be a new and better system that would remove places like Philadelphia and Birmingham, AL and Atlanta, Jackson, MS, etc.
I agree we should not be lumped with Toronto, but we shouldn't be lumped in with Savannah, GA either.
You just lumped Philadelphia with Jackson ms and Birmingham Alabama and atlanta???? Philadelphia fits better with Toronto than it does with atlanta. Only 10 degree different in average January high between the 2 cities versus 12 degrees for Atlanta and 16 degrees between Jackson and philly. And if we do it by mean philly is even closer to Toronto in january than it is to Atlanta and other southern cities. Not only that but Philly is 7 degrees further north than Atlanta and only 3 degrees further south than toronto. So climaticaly Philly is closer to Toronto than it is too any of the cities you mentioned.
You just lumped Philadelphia with Jackson ms and Birmingham Alabama and atlanta???? Philadelphia fits better with Toronto than it does with atlanta. Only 10 degree different in average January high between the 2 cities versus 12 degrees for Atlanta and 16 degrees between Jackson and philly. And if we do it by mean philly is even closer to Toronto in january than it is to Atlanta and other southern cities. Not only that but Philly is 7 degrees further north than Atlanta and only 3 degrees further south than toronto. So climaticaly Philly is closer to Toronto than it is too any of the cities you mentioned.
I still would not class Atlanta and Jackson as subtropical. They are just too prone too very cold conditions in winter. How does Atlanta compare to Rome, Italy in the subtropical category. Talk about the difference in what winter instability will do to a landscape.
The streetview of Rome makes all of the Southeast outside of deep south Texas and Florida look like kind of second rate subtropical climates imo. Jackson or Atlanta or Raleigh are not anywhere near that level of subtropicalness in vegetation.
I just don't know how you can separate out vegetation from climate. The difference in that image of Rome vs Atlanta shows how two places with the same avg winter temps are just not the same climate. Atlanta looks far more like Philadelphia than Rome, wouldn't you say? All because of how cold Atlanta gets in winter, not the average temps. Average temps are really not helpful in the eastern US because of the instability. Atlanta has 42% of winter nights below 32F. In that regard and landscape its climate is far closer to Philly than Rome. Average lowest temp reached each winter Philly 8F, Atlanta 14F, Rome somewhere between 25F and 30F. Which is Atlanta closest to in that regard?
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Originally Posted by tom77falcons
I still would not class Atlanta and Jackson as subtropical. They are just too prone too very cold conditions in winter. How does Atlanta compare to Rome, Italy in the subtropical category. Talk about the difference in what winter instability will do to a landscape.
The streetview of Rome makes all of the Southeast outside of deep south Texas and Florida look like kind of second rate subtropical climates imo. Jackson or Atlanta or Raleigh are not anywhere near that level of subtropicalness in vegetation.
I just don't know how you can separate out vegetation from climate. The difference in that image of Rome vs Atlanta shows how two places with the same avg winter temps are just not the same climate. Atlanta looks far more like Philadelphia than Rome, wouldn't you say? All because of how cold Atlanta gets in winter, not the average temps. Average temps are really not helpful in the eastern US because of the instability. Atlanta has 42% of winter nights below 32F. In that regard and landscape its climate is far closer to Philly than Rome. Average lowest temp reached each winter Philly 8F, Atlanta 14F, Rome somewhere between 25F and 30F. Which is Atlanta closest to in that regard?
You really want compare Atlanta with an Mediterranean Coastal City?
Comapare Atlanta with Sofia,who is at the Same Latitude as Rome,Atlanta will look like an Subtropical Paradise.
I still would not class Atlanta and Jackson as subtropical. They are just too prone too very cold conditions in winter. How does Atlanta compare to Rome, Italy in the subtropical category. Talk about the difference in what winter instability will do to a landscape.
The streetview of Rome makes all of the Southeast outside of deep south Texas and Florida look like kind of second rate subtropical climates imo. Jackson or Atlanta or Raleigh are not anywhere near that level of subtropicalness in vegetation.
I just don't know how you can separate out vegetation from climate. The difference in that image of Rome vs Atlanta shows how two places with the same avg winter temps are just not the same climate. Atlanta looks far more like Philadelphia than Rome, wouldn't you say? All because of how cold Atlanta gets in winter, not the average temps. Average temps are really not helpful in the eastern US because of the instability. Atlanta has 42% of winter nights below 32F. In that regard and landscape its climate is far closer to Philly than Rome. Average lowest temp reached each winter Philly 8F, Atlanta 14F, Rome somewhere between 25F and 30F. Which is Atlanta closest to in that regard?
Still makes a big difference between Atlanta and Philadelphia. I know, yes these places in Europe are very green. Also using cidp palms and Washingtonias as markers of subtropicalness is not the best idea, they are very cold hardy in dry climates, look at El Paso texas, much colder average mean in winter with an average low in the 20s during winter and similar record low to here yet they grow cidp palms and Washingtonias. Reason washies and cidp palms don't do so well here is because their cold hardiness is less due to the moister environment, as for citrus the trifoliate orange is the hardiest citrus there is and it is an invasive here in NC forests, and there is a variety of grapefruit that grows here, but you are right there is no chance of sustainable citrus farming outside a central Florida, which was destroyed in the 1980s, although places along the southern coast can grow citrus, just not farm it long term. Also I remember seeing the pics of rome filled with stone pines and you commented on how green and subtropical it was, yet loblollies to you are not markers of subtropicalness. CIDP palms are indicators of dry climates. Also why are they so cold hardy if they are from places that have never seen temps below 20. I agree with you the lack of more tender species in Atlanta is due to the instability and low mean minimum temps.
Interesting, Ultisols are a type of soil that occur in humid subtropical and tropical climates in the world. There distribution in the us roughly follows the koppen definition of humid subtropical in the us. Interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultisol
Also on another note, cape hatteras has a mean minimum temp of 22 degrees, lots of oceanic influence, and while in 2000 Raleigh went down to single digits they did not see a temp below 20. Its not just cape hatteras that has major oceanic influence, any place from duck nc to cape hatteras on the coast and any place in that area along the sound such as wahsington nc, which has a minimum temp of 17 which is like Wilmington nc, despite wahsington nc being much further north and much further inland.
Europe definitely won the "highest latitudes, best climates" category in natures lottery. The eastern half of North America all the way down to Florida came in last in that lottery imo. Worst geography for winter stability on the planet.
People go on and on about Miami being tropical, well look at other cities at their latitude and at sea level. Those other cities have never ever gone below freezing. Places like Karachi (went to 32F not below), Dubai, Bahrain, Hong Kong, etc etc. Not only has Miami gone down to 27F, it has gone down to 32F or below in Dec, Jan, Feb and even March.
What about Miami Beach? Also, Miami has by far, the highest winter mean temperatures out of all the locations you listed. Actually, it probably comes first in regards to winter mean temperatures at its latitude.
But to go along with your statements, tropical Mexico is even more vulnerable to arctic cold.
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