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Therefore a subtropical climate, for me, would be one with hot summers and all months above 50 F
Yeah, I agree with that to an extent BUT you have to factor in the continental nature of the winters in the Southeast, what you don't find to this degree in other subtropical regions in other continents. For one, we live on a continent with a physical geography that makes it conducive to allow frigid polar air to dip down to low-to-mid latitudes as the jet stream often has a wild shifting and dipping pattern in North America (zonal patterns, especially throughout the year, is RARE).
In the Southeast, you don't have a high enough mountain range to filter out a lot of the frigid air. The Appalachian mountains is just basically a minor speed bump for complex weather systems and cold fronts coming from the west or from up north from Canada. The Rockies help the West Coast locations A LOT in moderating their weather and temperatures compared to the Appalachians for obvious reasons. Plus, Arctic Oscillation is a huge thing in the Northern Hemisphere. The Southern Hemisphere has Antarctica and Antarctica is large surrounded by ocean and is a significant distance from other continents - so the polar vortexes are more stable down there - lowering or at least limiting the chance of extreme polar cold air masses to reach South America (the tip of Patagonia has a pretty cold climate but warmer than similar latitudes in North America), Africa, and Australia.
The temperate rainforests of the Pacific Northwest have forests with higher biomass than the tropics and yet the temperatures are fairly cool year round. How do you explain that?
Simple answer is that the trees are much longer lived, which allows them to grow larger than trees in the tropics. Why that is is an interesting question that I don't know the answer to. However, growth will be slower than in the tropics (lower net primary productivity), it is just that the trees have longer to get bigger rather than growing faster.
Simple answer is that the trees are much longer lived, which allows them to grow larger than trees in the tropics. Why that is is an interesting question that I don't know the answer to. However, growth will be slower than in the tropics (lower net primary productivity), it is just that the trees have longer to get bigger rather than growing faster.
Trees like Redwoods and Douglas fir, are quick growing trees though.
Leaving out any extreme cold snaps and going by averages, I’d say anything south of the smoky mountains in the USA is subtropical. Anything south of Shanghai in China is subtropical. The southeast coast of Japan, Australia, and South America are subtropical as well. Subtropical ends when the coldest month has highs average above 70 F, because at that point it’s warm enough to not need a heater or jacket at all.
Leaving out any extreme cold snaps and going by averages, I’d say anything south of the smoky mountains in the USA is subtropical. Anything south of Shanghai in China is subtropical. The southeast coast of Japan, Australia, and South America are subtropical as well. Subtropical ends when the coldest month has highs average above 70 F, because at that point it’s warm enough to not need a heater or jacket at all.
I agree for the most part. However, you do have to factor in the night temps, it may average in the upper 60s and low 70's during the day in the cold months - but it may average below 50F (in the 40's in this case) at night - and then usually you need a jacket and some people require heating at those temps. That being said, I do think if the daytime temperature averages above 70F (I personally would say 72F and up) during the coldest months, that when you reach tropical or megathermal (I like the latter word better) territory with the climate.
What I would say what would say one of things that would disqualify a climate to be too cold to be subtropical if any day of the year (outside of once in a few decades or century event) where the temperatures fail to go above freezing. Raleigh, for example, averages around 3 days a year that it doesn't go above freezing. I seen Tom77Falcons on this forum mention that could put many subtropical flora under serious threat, which I agree.
I agree for the most part. However, you do have to factor in the night temps, it may average in the upper 60s and low 70's during the day in the cold months - but it may average below 50F (in the 40's in this case) at night - and then usually you need a jacket and some people require heating at those temps. That being said, I do think if the daytime temperature averages above 70F (I personally would say 72F and up) during the coldest months, that when you reach tropical or megathermal (I like the latter word better) territory with the climate.
What I would say what would say one of things that would disqualify a climate to be too cold to be subtropical if any day of the year (outside of once in a few decades or century event) where the temperatures fail to go above freezing. Raleigh, for example, averages around 3 days a year that it doesn't go above freezing. I seen Tom77Falcons on this forum mention that could put many subtropical flora under serious threat, which I agree.
Raleigh is still too cold for subtropical. It’s a mesothermal climate like DC or Louisville.
For me, Subtropical would start around Greenville SC and points to the south & east. Places like Atlanta, Birmingham, and Tyler are reliably subtropical climates. Dallas is transitioning to semi arid territory because a lot of native subtropical plants might struggle due to frequent dry summers.
Raleigh is still too cold for subtropical. It’s a mesothermal climate like DC or Louisville.
For me, Subtropical would start around Greenville SC and points to the south & east. Places like Atlanta, Birmingham, and Tyler are reliably subtropical climates. Dallas is transitioning to semi arid territory because a lot of native subtropical plants might struggle due to frequent dry summers.
Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville SC/NC, Atlanta winter temperature averages are similar (low 50's for highs in Jan, low-mid 30's for lows) and borderline 8a/7b in plant cold hardiness (avg mean min temps usually in the 10's annually, occasionally single digits if a polar vortex gets savage runs down south to wreak havoc like it did in 2014, 2015, and 2018 and the late 1970s and 1980's was polar vortex hell for the Southeast - might as well call it the "mini neo-ice age" if you ask me).
Now what I will say that Raleigh gets more snow than Atlanta (Raleigh is around 6 inches and I think Atlanta is just under 2 inches). I will say Raleigh is more borderline subtropical or rather "subtropical continental" - well, a "warm" humid continental climate with cool winters. Highs in Jan (or whatever the coldest month is) have to be at least 60F with at least 40F (or very least 35F) as lows to be considered 'mild' (Raleigh average is 52F or 53F for highs, and 33F for lows - I went by Weatherspark because they go up 2016 instead of 2010 with the station data I was told).
That being said, Raleigh's winter avg temps are not what is disqualifying Raleigh or any of these inland southern metros to be truly subtropical - it's those annual minimum temperatures. Some said Raleigh is officially 8a in hardiness based on newer calculations (I did the calculation for years 1990 to 2019 and I came up with a little over 12F - I think by next summer, the USDA will come up with a 2021 hardiness zone map update with years 1991 to 2020 - they only used years 1981 to 2005 on the last official one they did in 2012). We usually get down into the teens at least annually and in the last 6 years (other than 2019, 2016, and this year) we been hitting single digits here in NC from having milder winters throughout the 1990s into the early 2010's.
For our latitude and elevation, dipping into the single digits is asinine BUT North America has a type of geography that strongly influences the polar jet stream to dip down into low latitudes east of the Rockies bringing frigid arctic air from to time. Plus, we got a lot of cold land near the North Pole, ice caps are quickly melting, so this makes the polar vortex less stable and susceptible to arctic oscillation - where warmer air can quickly come to the poles, destabilize and even split the polar vortex, and bring that savagely frigid air down south. Cities in the inland south like Raleigh and Atlanta easily falls victim to this. Cities in other "subtropical" areas like Wuhan (colder winter averages than Raleigh but higher hardiness zone), Sydney, Buenos Aires, Athens, Rome don't face these dynamics anywhere to do the degree we do.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenI69
Raleigh is still too cold for subtropical. It’s a mesothermal climate like DC or Louisville.
For me, Subtropical would start around Greenville SC and points to the south & east. Places like Atlanta, Birmingham, and Tyler are reliably subtropical climates. Dallas is transitioning to semi arid territory because a lot of native subtropical plants might struggle due to frequent dry summers.
I consider a climate subtropical if the coolest month has a mean 6°C+ and if 4 or more months have means 18°C+. In the south, that would be the coastal plain of SC&NC, GA from Atlanta southward, FL north of Lake Okeechobee, the southern 2/3 of AL&MS, all of LA, southeastern AR (the gulf coastal plain), and far southern OK (south of US 62) and east TX
I consider a climate subtropical if the coolest month has a mean 6°C+ and if 4 or more months have means 18°C+. In the south, that would be the coastal plain of SC&NC, GA from Atlanta southward, FL north of Lake Okeechobee, the southern 2/3 of AL&MS, all of LA, southeastern AR (the gulf coastal plain), and far southern OK (south of US 62) and east TX
Yeah, that sounds about right to me. I would say more so the bottom 1/3 or no more than half of AL, MS. The coastal plain of SC (East of Columbia) for sure, as you said, and the flatwoods ecoregion of NC.
I came across a fairly popular map produced by the IECC (International Energy Conservation Code) to illustrate climatic zones in the US. The areas below the "warm-humid" line (fairly similar area to what you considered a subtropical) are labeled as "Hot-Humid" and I would think it be accurate to say that area is humid subtropical. Here are some maps below:
I would say zones 2 and 3 could be considered subtropical, save most of Oklahoma, northern MS & AL (except the part of N. Mississippi that borders the river maybe), Western Arkansas and Tennessee outside of the Memphis area (Memphis may be pushing it, though, feel free to correct me). The lower piedmont region of NC, well I'm not too sure about that. The winters there aren't too much colder than the coastal plain of NC but the difference is noticeable for sure, but feel free to give me your feedback on that as well. I think these places got categorized as zone 3 because their summers be incredibly hot and humid but winters are a bit chilly to be considered subtropical imo.
I think of a subtropical climate with hot long humid summers, with mild to chilly but short winters, such as where I live (Rock Hill, SC)
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