Title - Which City Is The Most Subtropical? Least? Atlantic City vs. Oklahoma City vs. Albuquerque (climate, snow)

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Cases for/against Atlantic City, NJ, U.S.A...
--For: The USDA Zone is 7b and even almost 8a, which makes it the highest of these three.
--For: It's the only of these three cities to have never recorded a temperature below -23.3C/-10F.
--For: It's vulnerable to hurricanes and tropical storms.
--For: It's the closest of the three to having average winter lows above freezing.
--Against: Despite it being almost 8a and having ocean moderation, it's probably too cold to grow Cabbage Palmettos in the general climate partly due to low winter means, unlike Virginia Beach, Atlanta and Memphis.
--Against: The average high in January is less than 6C/42.8F, and 4 months have an average high under 11.1C/52F. This makes winters somewhat cold and long despite not being cold enough for snowpack; even Needle Palm and Dwarf Palmetto may have a somewhat difficult time due to this.
--Against: They lie well outside the Sun Belt by all definitions. The other two cities are within it latitudinally, state-wise, climatically and culturally.
--Against: If they weren't right on the coast, they'd probably be in Zone 6b!
--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlant...Jersey#Climate

Cases for/against Oklahoma City, OK, U.S.A...
--For: The daily mean for January is 4C, almost 40F! That's pretty solidly subtropical even using the 0C isotherm.
--For: There are 9 months with means over 10C/50F. This means the growing season for trees lasts most of the year, and the minimum to be subtropical under Trewartha is 8.
--For: Escarpment Live Oak, a subtropical plant, is native to a neighboring county. Also, the state it's in is at the northwestern natural limit for Dwarf Palmetto.
--For: The average high in January falls only 0.2C/0.3F short of 10C/50F, so it's very nearly warm enough for ants to be active year-round.
--Against: The USDA Zone is 7a, the lowest of the three. However, that's still enough to easily grow Needle Palm, Dwarf Palmetto, Southern Magnolia, Escarpment Live Oak and Japanese Plum Yew with mostly snowless winters, and it is closer to 7b than to 6b.
--Against: The record lows are tied with Albuquerque for being lowest. However, Nashville also has a record low of -17F and is subtropical per both Koppen and Trewartha.
--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City#Climate

Cases for/against Albuquerque, NM, U.S.A...
--For: One of the three places with available data has a December mean over 2.2C/36F, which is the generally accepted minimum for where palms could theoretically naturalize.
--For: Two species of palms could grow here, those being the Mazari Palm and European Fan Palm.
--For: The general climate has a USDA Zone of 7b.
--Against: The climate is BSk/BWk depending on your exact location, and all desert palms except Mazari and European need a BSh/BWh climate to thrive unless it's hyperoceanic like San Diego.
--Against: Mazari Palm is notoriously difficult to grow and very unpopular. Also, European Fan Palm may still need supplemental water during droughts, which could be illegal in such a desert-dominated state.
--Against: Although the general climate has a USDA Zone of 7b, it drops to 6b in some microclimates while lacking any significant 8a/8b microclimates. This makes it inferior to places like Memphis, Atlanta and Virginia Beach for growing tree-form palms regardless of aridity, and it also means there are some microclimates where palms would struggle period.
--Against: There are only 7 months above 10C/50F at all three stations, so it's not subtropical per Trewartha. Also, two of those three stations don't have 2.2C/36F+ winter means.
--Against: The record lows are tied with Oklahoma City for being lowest. However, Nashville also has a record low of -17F and is subtropical per both Koppen and Trewartha. On the other hand, Albuquerque has recorded sub-freezing temperatures for 9 months of the year; even places like Cookeville, TN and Roanoke, VA have only just barely recorded 8.
--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuqu...Mexico#Climate

As for me...

Spoiler

Oklahoma City is the most subtropical to me. It is almost certainly able to grow more plant species than the other two, nearly has recognizably subtropical native vegetation and barely has chilly winters at all. After that, Albuquerque gets a slight edge over Atlantic City due to the former's low latitude and latter's long, cold winters.

[Isleofpalms85]

I would say Oklahoma City wins this battle for being the most Cfa of the three but only because it’s closer to Dallas. If it weren’t closer to Dallas then I would have probably given the prize to Atlantic City

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

I would say Albuquerque is the most subtropical in terms of temps (not moisture obviously), though OKC is on it's heels.

[klimkin199]

I use these criterias:
Mean annual temperature >12°C and <21°C
Mean low-sun season temperature >8°C and <16°C
Atlantic City: 13,05°C (subtropical) and 6,65°C (not subtropical)
Oklahoma City: 16,35°C (subtropical) and 8,95°C (subtropical)
Albuquerque: 14°C (subtropical) and 6,7°C (not subtropical).
So, Oklahoma is most subtropical

[BMI]

Originally Posted by klimkin199

I use these criterias:
Mean annual temperature >12°C and <21°C
Mean low-sun season temperature >8°C and <16°C
Atlantic City: 13,05°C (subtropical) and 6,65°C (not subtropical)
Oklahoma City: 16,35°C (subtropical) and 8,95°C (subtropical)
Albuquerque: 14°C (subtropical) and 6,7°C (not subtropical).
So, Oklahoma is most subtropical

Not sure about that...stats sometimes don't show the whole story.


I've been to all 3 cities, not sure if you have....


Argument can be made for each one...Atlantic City has being on the coast helping it,
Oklahoma City has the highest over all temps, but my money is on Albuquerque by a hair.


In Albuquerque there are some homes with full size California Fan Palms,
(Washingtonia Filifera) ...the same palms you see all over southern Arizona, California,
extreme southern Nevada, SW Utah, and southern New Mexico.


I have some photos of them on my old laptop ...I'll see if I can post them,
they are located on the "westside" of Albuquerque, which has warmer "highs" than
than at the airport (where Albuquerque's official weather station is).


The lows are a bit lower but it's the warmer highs (in winter) that seem to really help,
also that Albuquerque is very dry in winter is important too.
California Fan Palms are native to the desert SW ...hard to grow them in PNW,
Seattle, Vancouver...winter is too wet and too cloudy.


I only saw a few Windmill fan palms at the zoo in Oklahoma City, there really are no palms
of any note there. Same with Atlantic City, I saw a couple small Windmill Palms
near one of the casinos, tiny ones in pots.

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by BMI

In Albuquerque there are some homes with full size California Fan Palms,
(Washingtonia Filifera) ...the same palms you see all over southern Arizona, California,
extreme southern Nevada, SW Utah, and southern New Mexico.

Are you sure they're not in some sort of small microclimate? I thought they were hardy to 8b, and even St. George fails to qualify as 8b/BWh and El Paso just barely does. CFPs also can't grow in Atlanta despite warm winter averages due to cold snaps.

California Fan Palms are native to the desert SW ...hard to grow them in PNW,
Seattle, Vancouver...winter is too wet and too cloudy.

And they need hot summers too. Just like Needle Palm, Dwarf Palmetto and Cabbage Palmetto.

I only saw a few Windmill fan palms at the zoo in Oklahoma City, there really are no palms
of any note there. Same with Atlantic City, I saw a couple small Windmill Palms
near one of the casinos, tiny ones in pots.

Dwarf Palmettos are native to Oklahoma, you know that right? Also, just because there are very few doesn't mean there can't be more than very few; you don't see Needle Palms lining the streets of Nashville nor Cabbage Palmettos at the hotels in Atlanta or Memphis, now do you? Plus, even if present, the Dwarf Palmettos and Needle Palms can be very easy to miss due to their small size.

I wonder how they keep the Chinese Windmill Palms alive though. I thought they needed mild summers to thrive, which OKC is far from having.

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.

Are you sure they're not in some sort of small microclimate? I thought they were hardy to 8b, and even St. George fails to qualify as 8b/BWh and El Paso just barely does. CFPs also can't grow in Atlanta despite warm winter averages due to cold snaps.



And they need hot summers too. Just like Needle Palm, Dwarf Palmetto and Cabbage Palmetto.



Dwarf Palmettos are native to Oklahoma, you know that right? Also, just because there are very few doesn't mean there can't be more than very few; you don't see Needle Palms lining the streets of Nashville nor Cabbage Palmettos at the hotels in Atlanta or Memphis, now do you? Plus, even if present, the Dwarf Palmettos and Needle Palms can be very easy to miss due to their small size.

I wonder how they keep the Chinese Windmill Palms alive though. I thought they needed mild summers to thrive, which OKC is far from having.

There are California fan palms in St George, UT. I've been there and seen them. They aren't everywhere like here in Phoenix, but there's 1 or 2 every couple blocks I'd say

Also, Atlanta is Zone 8A

3rd, at the cold end, Washingtonia's do better in dry climates than humid. In humid climates, they're only hardy to Zone 9A generally

[Joe90]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.

Are you sure they're not in some sort of small microclimate? I thought they were hardy to 8b, and even St. George fails to qualify as 8b/BWh and El Paso just barely does. CFPs also can't grow in Atlanta despite warm winter averages due to cold snaps.

And they need hot summers too. Just like Needle Palm, Dwarf Palmetto and Cabbage Palmetto.

Summers don't need to be that hot for CFPs - they grow in NZ with no problems, although they are much less common than W. robusta

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

3rd, at the cold end, Washingtonia's do better in dry climates than humid. In humid climates, they're only hardy to Zone 9A generally

Yes. I just thought they weren't reliably hardy to 8a (at least not in the long run). Although I do believe your statement about St. George and know Atlanta is 8a.

Originally Posted by Joe90

Summers don't need to be that hot for CFPs - they grow in NZ with no problems, although they are much less common than W. robusta

I knew if they grew in San Francisco and San Diego, they could probably do so in much if New Zealand too. I meant to be tough enough to survive repeated freezes easily, though.

[deneb78]

Parts of the BC South coast/islands and the Washington coast are zone 9A but California Fan Palms won't grow. I think it's because it's too wet for them in winter. I have been to Tofino and Southern Gulf Islands on several occasions and never seen one there.