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Old 05-17-2016, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Bologna, Italy
6,903 posts, read 4,227,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
Explain how New York City and Brisbane have a commonality? Oh, don't forget, Sochi and Dubbo? You see, it goes both ways here.

North Dakota would be continental-temperate in my book. New York and Chicago are also a milder version of continental-temperate. Launceston and most of upper NZ is warm temperate. Sydney, Brisbane, LA and Hong Kong are subtropical. London and Dunedin are cool temperate.

Tropical: Highs above 26C all year round.
Subtropical: Summer highs exceeding 26C. Winter highs staying above 14C.
Warm temperate: Summers highs between 23C and 25C. Winter highs not going below 12C
Cool temperate: Summers highs between 15C and 22C. Winter highs usually around 5C to 10C (any lower it's continental).
Continental-temperate: Summer highs usually above 22C (no real limit - they can even reach 33C). Winter highs must be below 0C.
Continental-subarctic: Summer highs can be around 16C - 22C. Winter highs must be lower than -8C.
Maritime subarctic: Summer highs around 14C-18C. Winter highs not going below -3C.
Tundra: Highs around -5C to 10C all year round.
Polar: Below 0C all year round.

Now don't tell me that these classifications are "meaningless". Under Koppen, they might be - He doesn't own these terms. And it's subjective anyway.
I'm nowhere to be found on that list... same goes for many posters I guess.
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Old 05-17-2016, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
10,856 posts, read 9,050,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forgotten username View Post
I'm nowhere to be found on that list... same goes for many posters I guess.
I should've made a "mild temperate" category (in between warm and cool), I guess.
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Old 05-18-2016, 03:56 PM
 
1,112 posts, read 784,615 times
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Cfa would have three subgroups:
A-"transitional": winter average high 40F or lower
B-40-60F
C-over 60F
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
22,301 posts, read 8,830,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ialmostforgot View Post
Cfa would have three subgroups:
A-"transitional": winter average high 40F or lower
B-40-60F
C-over 60F
I would propose for a breakup of the subtropical zone per my climate system:

Bba=6-11 months 72°F+, coolest month 50-63.9, warmest month 86+
Bb=6-11 months 72+, coolest month 50-63.9, warmest month 72-85.9
Caaa=5 or fewer months 72+ or <42, coolest month 50+, warmest month 86+
Caa=5 or fewer months >72 or <42, coolest month 50+, warmest month 72-85.9
Cbaa=5 or fewer months >72 or <42, coolest month 42-49.9, warmest month 86+
Cba=5 or fewer months >72 or <42, coolest month 42-49.9, warmest month 72-85.9
Ccaa=5 or fewer months >72 or <42, coolest month 32-41.9, warmest month 86+
Cca=5 or fewer months >72 or <42, coolest month 32-41.9, warmest month 72-85.9

Examples of each

Bba=Phoenix
Bb=Tampa
Caaa=Tucson
Caa=Houston
Cbaa=Las Vegas
Cba=Atlanta
Ccaa=St George, UT
Cca=Nashville
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Raise the subtropical isotherm to 23C.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:17 PM
 
Location: C: Home R: Monroe CT, Climate:Dfa
1,916 posts, read 1,075,427 times
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If I had to make one...

Tropical
Definition: All months have an average temp above 64°F/18°C.
Letter: A
Arid
Definition: Total rainfall must not exceed 10 in/254 mm
Letter: b
Semi Arid
Definition: Total rainfall must be between 10 in/254 mm and 19 in/482 mm
Letter: c
Savannah
Definition: Total rainfall must exceed 20 in/508 mm and the driest month must have less than 2.0 in/50 mm of rain
Letter: d
Monsoon
Definition: Same as Savannah except the wettest month must have 20 in/508 mm of rain during the wettest month.
Letter: e
Rainforest
All months must have an average rainfall exceeding 2.0 in/50.8 mm.

Subtropical
Definition: 8 months with an average temperature exceeding 50°F/10°C and the warmest month with an average temperature exceeding 73°F/23°C.
Letter: B
Arid
Definition: Total precipitation must not exceed 10 in/254 mm
Letter: b
Semi Arid
Definition: Total precipitation must be between 10 in/254 mm and 19 in/482 mm
Letter: c
Humid Dry Summer
Definition: Driest month must have less than 2.0 in of precipitation and it must be during the high sun period. Total precipitation must also equal or exceed 20 in/508 mm.
Letter: d
Humid Wet Summer
Definition: Driest month must have less than 2.0 in of precipitation and it must be during the low sun period. Total precipitation must also equal or exceed 20 in/508 mm.
Letter: e
Humid
Definition: All months must have 2.0 in/50.8 mm of precipitation.
Letter: f

Temperate
Definition: The average temperature of 5-7 months must exceed 50°F and the coldest month must have an average temperature at or above 32°F/0°C
Letter: C
Warm Arid
Definition: Total precipitation must not exceed 10 in/254 mm and the warmest month must have an average temperature above 73°F/23°C.
Letter b
Mild Arid
Definition: Total precipitation must not exceed 10 in/254 mm and the warmest month must have an average temperature below 73°F/23°C.
Letter c
Warm Semi Arid
Definition: Total precipitation must be between 10 in/254 mm and 19 in/482 mm and the warmest month must have an average temperature above 73°F/23°C
Letter: d
Mild Semi Arid
Definition: Total precipitation must be between 10 in/254 mm and 19 in/482 mm and the warmest month must have an average temperature below 73°F/23°C
Letter: e
Humid Dry Summer
Definition: Driest month must have less than 2.0 in/50.8 mm of precipitation and it must be during the high sun period. Plus the warmest month must have an average temperature above 73°F/23°C
Letter: f
Humid Wet Summer
Definition: Driest month must have less than 2.0 in/50.8 mm of precipitation and it must be during the low sun period. Plus the warmest month must have an average temperature above 73°F/23°C
Letter: g
Mild Dry Summer
Definition: Driest month must have less than 2.0 in/50.8 mm of precipitation and it must be during the high sun period. Plus the warmest month must have an average temperature below 73°F/23°C.
Letter: h
Mild Wet Summer
Definition: Driest month must have less than 2.0 in/50.8 mm of precipitation and it must be during the low sun period. Plus the warmest month must have an average temperature below 73°F/23°C.
Letter: i
Humid
Definition: All months must have or exceed 2.0 in/50.8 mm of precipitation and the warmest month must have an average temperature above 73°F/23°C.
Letter: j
Mild
Definition: All months must have or exceed 2.0 in/50.8 mm of precipitation and the warmest month must have an average temperature above 73°F/23°C.
Letter: k

Main Category
Sub Category

That's all for now....
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
2,646 posts, read 2,455,085 times
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Default The Best Solution of Improved Köppen Climate Classification (Keep it simple)

It's been mentioned a lot before over years regarding a topic of whether Köppen is a great system as a guideline for the climatology aspect.
I've reviewed all of the threads related keyword of classification and find the majority point out the scale of Humid Subtropical(Cfa) is too broad then often brings top on the debates getting triggered by the word "Subtropical" because of the zone embrace places that could possibly observe several months of below-freezing weather like New York City.
Putting a lot of extra stuff to divide tropical by summer temperatures, add equatorial, split continental into another extra-continental(like the coldest month below -10°C), subcategorize subarctic are just confusing and not really useful to what kind of a climate it is looking at a glance. If you want to see detailed data, just grab a graph or climate chart, not harassing the letters in the classification.
There is nothing more to say other than modify C(Temperate) split into B(Warm Temperate) and C(Mild Temperate) and the criteria would be simply the coldest month above 10°C(B) and below 10°C(C). The initial letter of Arid zone would write W and the second letter of desert becomes D. By the way, I don't see much difference in biomes between D*c and D*d they were just added for the sake of the eastern edge of Russia so eliminate d in the third letter. The rest stays the same.

Af: Tropical Rainforest
Am: Tropical Monsoon
Aw: Tropical Savannah
WDh: Hot Desert
WSh: Hot Steppe
WDk: Cold Desert
WSk: Cold Steppe
Bfa: Humid Subtropical (Ex. Jacksonville, New Orleans, Orlando, Sydney, Brisbane, Buenos Aires, Taipei)
Bfb: Oceanic (Ex. Melbourne, Auckland)
Bwa: Humid Subtropical (Ex. Hong Kong)
Bwb: Subtropical Highland (Ex. Mexico City, Bogota)
Bsa: (Mild-winter, Hot-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. Los Angeles, Lisbon, Tel Aviv, Perth)
Bsb: (Mild-winter, Warm-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. San Francisco, Valparaíso, Cape Town)
Cfa: Humid Temperate (Ex. New York, Washington D.C., Atlanta, Dallas, Tokyo, Shanghai)
Cfb: Oceanic (Ex. Dublin, London, Paris, Amsterdam, Hamburg)
Cfc: (Subpolar) Oceanic
Cwa: Humid Temperate (Ex. Daegu)
Cwb: Subtropical Highland (Ex. Kunming)
Cwc: Subpolar Highland
Csa: (Temperate, Hot-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. Madrid, Marseille, Roma, Santiago)
Csb: (Temperate, Warm-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. Seattle, Portland)
Csc: (Temperate, Cool-summer) Mediterranean
Dfa: (Hot-summer) Humid Continental
Dfb: (Warm-summer) Humid Continental
Dfc: Subarctic
Dwa: (Hot-summer) Humid Subtropical
Dwb: (Warm-summer) Humid Subtropical
Dwc: Subarctic
Dsa: (Hot-summer) Humid Continental
Dsb: (Warm-summer) Humid Continental
Dsc: Subarctic
ET: Tundra
EF: Ice Cap

10°C isotherm in the coldest month is definitely not an arbitrary number beside it has a meaning of treeline for the warmest month, also affecting a huge role to distinguish harmful pest activities such as mosquitoes.

Last edited by tenkier7; 05-13-2020 at 12:43 PM..
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
18,281 posts, read 15,360,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkier7 View Post
n.
There is nothing more to say other than modify C(Temperate) split into B(Warm Temperate) and C(Mild Temperate) and the criteria would be simply the coldest month above 10°C(B) and below 10°C(C).


Bfb: Oceanic (Ex. Melbourne, Auckland)
Bwa: Humid Subtropical (Ex. Hong Kong)
Bwb: Subtropical Highland (Ex. Mexico City, Bogota)
Bsa: (Mild-winter, Hot-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. Los Angeles, Lisbon, Tel Aviv, Perth)
Bsb: (Mild-winter, Warm-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. San Francisco, Valparaíso, Cape Town)
Cfa: Humid Temperate (Ex. New York, Washington D.C., Atlanta, Dallas, Tokyo, Shanghai)
Cfb: Oceanic (Ex. Dublin, London, Paris, Amsterdam, Hamburg)
Cfc: (Subpolar) Oceanic
Cwa: Humid Temperate (Ex. Daegu)
Cwb: Subtropical Highland (Ex. Kunming)
Cwc: Subpolar Highland
Csa: (Temperate, Hot-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. Madrid, Marseille, Roma, Santiago)
Csb: (Temperate, Warm-summer) Mediterranean (Ex. Seattle, Portland)
Csc: (Temperate, Cool-summer) Mediterranean
ap

10°C isotherm in the coldest month is definitely not an arbitrary number beside it has a meaning of treeline for the warmest month, also affecting a huge role to distinguish harmful pest activities such as mosquitoes.
Have to disagree with your 10C rule - all it does is separate climates like my own, from it's obvious neighbouring counterparts such as Auckland and Wellington, and lumps in in with the likes of Copenhagen or Amsterdam. A giant backwards leap that just lessens understanding of Oceanic climates.

Always important when classifying the natural world, to not create divisions that don't exist in the natural world.

Last edited by Joe90; 05-13-2020 at 01:09 PM..
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
2,646 posts, read 2,455,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Have to disagree with your 10C rule - all it does is separate climates like my own, from it's obvious neighbouring counterparts such as Auckland and Wellington, and lumps in in with the likes of Copenhagen or Amsterdam.

A giant backwards leap that just lessens understanding of Oceanic climates.
Which is more similar?
New York(Cfa): Bridgeport(Dfa) vs. Dallas(Cfa)
Toulouse(Cfa): Charleston, SC(Cfa) vs. Bordeaux(Cfb)

You can't help finding a perfect one if only look at emphasizing to compare gray zones... think of Switzerland, they are chained under one country but people from Geneva and Lugano are culturally somewhat influenced by their neighbor border of French, Italian than a prototype image of German-speaking side. Unlike humans can control borders between countries, we can't cut off each climate zones... hopping from Wellington to Auckland won't see much of changes in their biomes.
Motueka is not far away from (Mild-winter or subtropical whatever feels right) variant of Oceanic(Bfb) stepping equatorward than finding Cfc, Copenhagen and Amsterdam are slightly closer stepping Subarctic(Cfc) or Continental(Dfb) than reach Cfa or Csa at present. Both clearly fitting under Cfb in different degrees. One situated relatively closer to Bfb and Cfc/Dfb respective.

Last edited by tenkier7; 05-13-2020 at 01:38 PM..
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
18,281 posts, read 15,360,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkier7 View Post
Which is more similar?
New York(Cfa): Bridgeport(Dfa) vs. Dallas(Cfa)
Toulouse(Cfa): Charleston, SC(Cfa) vs. Bordeaux(Cfb)

You can't help finding a perfect one if only look at emphasizing to compare gray zones... think of Switzerland, they are chained under one country but people from Geneva and Lugano are culturally somewhat influenced by their neighbor border of French, Italian than a prototype of German speaking side.
Motueka is not far away from (Mild-winter or subtropical whatever feels right) variant of Oceanic(Bfb) stepping equatorward than finding Cfc, Copenhagen and Amsterdam are slightly closer stepping Subarctic(Cfc) or Continental(Dfb) than reach Cfa or Csa at present.
Your examples just highlight the folly of rigid thresholds, and your 10C rule just furthers that. If a classification creates a false impression of a climate, it isn't doing it's what it's intended to do.

Climate classifications for the most part, really only works at the qualitative level, and really only in terms of defining general cause and effect on a broad spectrum.
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