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Old 05-13-2020, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
2,646 posts, read 2,455,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Your examples just highlight the folly of rigid thresholds, and your 10C rule just furthers that. If a classification creates a false impression of a climate, it isn't doing it's what it's intended to do.

Climate classifications for the most part, really only works at the qualitative level, and really only in terms of defining general cause and effect on a broad spectrum.
I have to agree with that. Then remember what I named on these classifications, Bfb and Cfb both are called just Oceanic and you can put "Mild-winter" "Cool-winter" "Subtropical" "Temperate" for option(prefix).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Yep I agree. Humid Subtropical was the only area in which Koppen really got it wrong. He disregarded large seasonal range in favour of hot summers.

The term Humid Subtropical describes somewhere like Brisbane more accurately, than it does NYC. Warm Continental describes NYC well.
So aren't you satisfied now?
My main point was solving between Humid Subtropical and Humid Temperate.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:45 PM
 
665 posts, read 163,556 times
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I think I'd reorganize the highest level Koppen categories.

A - icecap, tundra and taiga climates.

B - arid and semi arid climates

C - tropical and subtropical climates. Temperatures always high enough for significant plant growth.

D - "temperate" climates. Winter season too cool for significant plant growth. Generally deciduous forest climates in the NH. Would include the likes of London, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Tokyo but not Sydney, Brisbane, Hong Kong, Buenos Aires etc.

In case you're wondering, I would reorder the letters to make them match the order of identification by means of a key.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
18,280 posts, read 15,360,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkier7 View Post
I have to agree with that. Then remember what I named on these classifications, Bfb and Cfb both are called just Oceanic and you can put "Mild-winter" "Cool-winter" "Subtropical" "Temperate" for option(prefix).



So aren't you satisfied now?
My main point was solving between Humid Subtropical and Humid Temperate.
My thinking has changed quite a bit since I posted that, and I don't really see that it matters that Brisbane and NYC are worlds apart in day to day weather, as long as as the classification broadly describes the genetics of any climate.

The 10C rule creates a divide that doesn't exist, and only creates false understanding - Motueka is either more like Wellington or Auckland genetically, or it is more like Copenhagen. There is no middle ground.

Last edited by Joe90; 05-13-2020 at 02:25 PM..
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
18,280 posts, read 15,360,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
I think I'd reorganize the highest level Koppen categories.

A - icecap, tundra and taiga climates.

B - arid and semi arid climates

C - tropical and subtropical climates. Temperatures always high enough for significant plant growth.

D - "temperate" climates. Winter season too cool for significant plant growth. Generally deciduous forest climates in the NH.Would include the likes of London, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Tokyo but not Sydney, Brisbane, Hong Kong, Buenos Aires etc.

In case you're wondering, I would reorder the letters to make them match the order of identification by means of a key.
How would you define significant plant growth? I don't see the transitional grey areas as being the cities you listed, but more cities like Bordeaux, Nice, Auckland, Melbourne or Eureka.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:57 PM
 
Location: White House, TN
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Restore my post from December 17, 2019.

Anyway the "arid" climate grouping needs to be removed, and the arid climates denoted by precipitation letters.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:57 PM
 
665 posts, read 163,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
How would you define significant plant growth? I don't see the transitional grey areas as being the cities you listed, but more cities like Bordeaux, Nice, Auckland, Melbourne or Eureka.
I'm not sure exactly where I would draw the line, I was more trying to lay out the categories at the broadest level. The examples I listed as being excluded weren't as transitional examples, but good examples of Koppen C climates that would be excluded from my D category.

Basically it would be the cooler (and cooler winter) Koppen C climates together with much of his D.
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Old 05-13-2020, 04:35 PM
 
665 posts, read 163,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
My thinking has changed quite a bit since I posted that, and I don't really see that it matters that Brisbane and NYC are worlds apart in day to day weather, as long as as the classification broadly describes the genetics of any climate.

The 10C rule creates a divide that doesn't exist, and only creates false understanding - Motueka is either more like Wellington or Auckland genetically, or it is more like Copenhagen. There is no middle ground.
But this is an inherent problem with classifying anything that doesn't share a common ancestry - anything at the edge of a category is going to be more like something just over the border in a neighbouring category than it is like something in its own category's core.

For example we categorize colours as "red", "orange", "yellow" etc. Now you could come along and say that we shouldn't divide "red" from "orange" because a very reddish orange is closer to red than a middle orange or a yellowish orange and therefore the category "orange" makes no sense.

Or grades in exams make no sense because a low A is more like high B than a a high B is like a mid B...
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Old 05-13-2020, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
18,280 posts, read 15,360,090 times
Reputation: 6138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
But this is an inherent problem with classifying anything that doesn't share a common ancestry - anything at the edge of a category is going to be more like something just over the border in a neighbouring category than it is like something in its own category's core.

For example we categorize colours as "red", "orange", "yellow" etc. Now you could come along and say that we shouldn't divide "red" from "orange" because a very reddish orange is closer to red than a middle orange or a yellowish orange and therefore the category "orange" makes no sense.

Or grades in exams make no sense because a low A is more like high B than a a high B is like a mid B...
Wellington, Motueka and Auckland have average winter averages of 7C/13C, 2.8c/13.8c and 7.2C/15.1C

Copenhagen has -0.4C/3.8c.


You've indicated that winter growth is a significant feature that should be considered, but the notion that Copenhagen's winter is in anyway comparable to my climate, where an avocado, orange or passionfruit is a pretty standard garden plant producing fruit in the winters months, and lawns are mowed weekly during winter, would make a mockery of winter growth being considered significant

All the 10C rule does is create the falsehood that Copenhagen and Motueka have some sort of climatic kinship in winter, when none exists whatsoever - if you can't increase understanding by meddling with an established system, leave it alone.

Last edited by Joe90; 05-13-2020 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 05-13-2020, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
2,646 posts, read 2,455,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Wellington, Motueka and Auckland have average winter averages of 7C/13C, 2.8c/13.8c and 7.2C/15.1C

Copenhagen has -0.4C/3.8c.


You've indicated that winter growth is a significant feature that should be considered, but the notion that Copenhagen's winter is in anyway comparable to my climate, where an avocado, orange or passionfruit is a pretty standard garden plant producing fruit in the winters months, and lawns are mowed weekly during winter, would make a mockery of winter growth being considered significant

All the 10C rule does is create the falsehood that Copenhagen and Motueka have some sort of climatic kinship in winter, when none exists whatsoever - if you can't increase understanding by meddling with an established system, leave it alone.
I’m not being sarcastic at all but may I copy your text and rephrase the places and temperatures in a polite manner.

Quote:
Mackay and Townsville have average winter averages of 22.5C/11.1C and 25.1/13.7C

NYC has 3.5/-2.8C.


You've indicated that winter growth is a significant feature that should be considered, but the notion that New York's winter is in anyway comparable to my climate, where tropical plants are a pretty standard garden plant producing fruit in the winters months, and lawns are mowed weekly during winter, would make a mockery of winter growth being considered significant

All the 18C rule does is create the falsehood that New York City and Mackay have some sort of climatic kinship in winter, when none exists whatsoever - if you can't increase understanding by meddling with an established system, leave it alone.
Following this logic vice versa, again should we eliminate 0C rule for Temperate and Continental groups and the only thing able to compare would be solid Tropical(A), Polar(E) and everything in between are left out vaguely.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
18,280 posts, read 15,360,090 times
Reputation: 6138
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkier7 View Post
I’m not being sarcastic at all but may I copy your text and rephrase the places and temperatures in a polite manner.



Following this logic vice versa, again should we eliminate 0C rule for Temperate and Continental groups and the only thing able to compare would be solid Tropical(A), Polar(E) and everything in between are left out vaguely.
What I'm saying, is the existing classifications of Cfa or Cfb are fine as they are, as despite huge differences, they still subscribe to a broadly similar genetic model that provides some understanding to climates as diverse Auckland/Copenhagen climates, or NYC/Mckay

Splitting the Cfb group up so as to have Motueka distinct from Auckland or Wellington, but the same as Copenhagen , has no basis under the genetic model, or under a day to day weather model
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