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Old 05-16-2020, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Trewartha, Dc
110 posts, read 27,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawa1992 View Post
The virtue of the "arid" classification is that it's inconsistent.
There, I fixed it for you. (You're welcome.)
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klimaforscher View Post
There, I fixed it for you. (You're welcome.)
I think dividing two realms of a desert scene is good enough using an annual mean of 18°C.
Hot desert means practically influenced by subtropical high year-round, while cold desert means it's either situated in a far interior of continent at mid-latitude, moderated due to higher altitude, or rainshadow area.

Ashgabat, Damascus, Walvis Bay, Baku, Zaragoza, Zacatecas, Aleppo, Comodoro, La Quiaca, L'Agulhas, Sana'a, Asmara, and Alexandria are labeled Hot Desert under the other optional suggestion using the coldest month 0°C isotherm and that does not really make sense considering the two main causes of forming a desert clime as written above.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
980 posts, read 827,679 times
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Channeling my inner Joe90, I don’t think the 18°C divide helps increase the understanding of the arid climates. There are three bands across the area affected by subtropical high; the one in the middle is the realm of the quintessential hot deserts (Sahara-like climates). Then you have the dry tropical (Sahel-like) on one side and the dry Mediterranean (Syrian-like) on the other side.

Then you can make a distinction for the highly unusual coastal deserts (Atacama-like) and the various cooler forms (Eastern Subtropical, Subtropical highland, Continental/Temperate).
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
2,646 posts, read 2,455,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhc1985 View Post
Channeling my inner Joe90, I don’t think the 18°C divide helps increase the understanding of the arid climates. There are three bands across the area affected by subtropical high; the one in the middle is the realm of the quintessential hot deserts (Sahara-like climates). Then you have the dry tropical (Sahel-like) on one side and the dry Mediterranean (Syrian-like) on the other side.

Then you can make a distinction for the highly unusual coastal deserts (Atacama-like) and the various cooler forms (Eastern Subtropical, Subtropical highland, Continental/Temperate).
But they share common traits of lack of rain being located at the horse latitudes rather than other geographic barriers, steppe climates are basically wrapping outlier of desert climates in the arid biome.

You may alternative to referring low-latitude cold current coastal climates as BWn or BSn in this case.
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Old 05-16-2020, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
980 posts, read 827,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkier7 View Post
But they share common traits of lack of rain being located at the horse latitudes rather than other geographic barriers, steppe climates are basically wrapping outlier of desert climates in the arid biome.

You may alternative to referring low-latitude cold current coastal climates as BWn or BSn in this case.
Yes, they do. Toronto and Vancouver do, too. However, in case of these steppe climates, the desert already creates a natural barrier, which is further supported by their ‘genetics’. Why to put two places from both sides together while separating them from the ones with clear connections.

What is the point of saying that Tripoli and Niamey have hot steppe climates and Aleppo has a cool steppe climate? It doesn’t have much sense to me. It’s much better saying that Tripoli and Aleppo have Dry Mediterranean climates and Niamey has a Dry Tropical climate.
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Old 05-16-2020, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
2,646 posts, read 2,455,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhc1985 View Post
Yes, they do. Toronto and Vancouver do, too. However, in case of these steppe climates, the desert already creates a natural barrier, which is further supported by their ‘genetics’. Why to put two places from both sides together while separating them from the ones with clear connections.

What is the point of saying that Tripoli and Niamey have hot steppe climates and Aleppo has a cool steppe climate? It doesn’t have much sense to me. It’s much better saying that Tripoli and Aleppo have Dry Mediterranean climates and Niamey has a Dry Tropical climate.
I don’t know what’s Toronto and Vancouver similar beside they’re non-tropical/polar. To me, Köppen’s intension seems bisect the desert(includes steppe as well in this context) to view how world’s dry section is affected by subtropical high or not. Niamey and Tripoli are both located within an edge of vast plain subtropical desert system meanwhile Aleppo is tad bit north of extended Arabian Desert to the south then when you look at the stat, actually not far from B*h and it correlates the best as what Köppen could draw in my opinion.
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Old 05-16-2020, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
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After all, I’m contented with current Köppen classification.
The main reason some people cannot take the definition of subtropical is because they solely associating vegetable and hardiness. Just focus about a climate that can maintain tropical level of warmth at least couple months in a year. Köppen didn’t named the Cfa zone and if you find renaming is appropriate then call it Humid Temperate instead. Eventually they have same character of snow is not strongly dominating in the coldest month most year and summers are hot enough to resemble tropical atmosphere.
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Old 05-16-2020, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
980 posts, read 827,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkier7 View Post
I don’t know what’s Toronto and Vancouver similar beside they’re non-tropical/polar. To me, Köppen’s intension seems bisect the desert(includes steppe as well in this context) to view how world’s dry section is affected by subtropical high or not. Niamey and Tripoli are both located within an edge of vast plain subtropical desert system meanwhile Aleppo is tad bit north of extended Arabian Desert to the south then when you look at the stat, actually not far from B*h and it correlates the best as what Köppen could draw in my opinion.
No idea what Köppen’s intention was… I think people sometimes overanalyze his ideas. A big part of his work was done even before Bjerknes’ theory of fronts. The knowledge of meteorology back then was limited, and he did it very well after all.

Toronto and Vancouver are both wet, temperate climates from mid-latitudes.
Tripoli and Niamey are both dry, warm climates from the edges of horse latitudes.
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Old 05-16-2020, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Trewartha, Dc
110 posts, read 27,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenkier7 View Post
I think dividing two realms of a desert scene is good enough using an annual mean of 18°C.
I have a climate map I've been tinkering with, and 18°C doesn't seem to quite do what you're saying - it turns out isotherms like 16 or 17°C get closer to discriminating between classic subtropical deserts, and deserts created by other phenomena.


Since you seem to know what you're talking about, let me get a list of desert cities together to show you what I mean; maybe you'd be interested in figuring out precisely where the isotherm should be.
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Old 05-16-2020, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Paris, Île-de-France, France
2,646 posts, read 2,455,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhc1985 View Post
No idea what Köppen’s intention was… I think people sometimes overanalyze his ideas. A big part of his work was done even before Bjerknes’ theory of fronts. The knowledge of meteorology back then was limited, and he did it very well after all.

Toronto and Vancouver are both wet, temperate climates from mid-latitudes.
Tripoli and Niamey are both dry, warm climates from the edges of horse latitudes.
Yeah what I believe about his best work done in his classification are simplifying it as possible yet still translates geographic zone and west-east contrast of wind system on latitudinal step well in basic concept. Of course, world climates and nature habitat in general don’t cut off drastically at one point like a digital clock when you jump to an adjacent border. I’ve heard Köppen initially created 5 major climate types then subdivided into 11 types before discussing the detailed letters of each classification: looks simple and beautiful.

1. Tropical Rainforest (Af)
2. Tropical Wet & Dry (Am, Aw)
3. Hot Desert (BWh, BSh) or Desert (BWh, BWk)
4. Cold Desert (BWk, BSk) or Steppe (BSh, BSk)
5. Humid Subtropical (Cfa, Cwa)
6. Mediterranean (Csa) or 6a. Hot-summer Mediterranean (Csa) / 6b. Cool-summer Mediterranean (Csb)
7. Oceanic (Cfb, Cfc) or 7a. Oceanic (Cfb) / 7b. Subpolar Oceanic (Cfc)
8. Humid Continental (D*a, D*b) or 8a. Hot-summer Humid Continental (D*a) / 8b. Warm-summer Humid Continental (D*b)
9. Subarctic (D*c, D*d)
10. Tundra (ET)
11. Ice Cap (EF)
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