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Old 11-08-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: New Brunswick
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I feel the same way as others in that Humid Subtropical covers winter temperatures that are too cool to go under this. I would put in a new category called Hot Summer Temperate. This would include summers with a mean temperature above 22°C (72°F) cutting off oceanic climates. Winters would be from -3°C (26.6°F) to 7°C (44.6 °F). This would leave Humid Subtropical to go from 8°C (46.4°F) to 18°C (64.4 °F).

I feel that the expression if it's broke don't fix it applies to the rest of the Koppen Scale including Oceanic Climates.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: New Brunswick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
That's why Oceanic and Continental distinctions are the most relevant label. Warm/cool are secondary.
I feel the same way it's not Oceanic Climates that is causing all of the controversy it's Humid Subtropical Climates. By bringing Oceanic climates into the argument it just makes things more confusing.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:29 AM
 
Location: In transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
That's why Oceanic and Continental distinctions are the most relevant label. Warm/cool are secondary.
We can add continental or oceanic but average annual temp is most important IMO. Somewhere like Sitka or Juneau, AK would be cold oceanic and Seattle and Portland would be warm oceanic. Vancouver is right on the line between the two. Same for continenral. Montreal and Toronto are cold continental whereas NYC and Philly are warm continental.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordo View Post
I feel the same way it's not Oceanic Climates that is causing all of the controversy it's Humid Subtropical Climates. By bringing Oceanic climates into the argument it just makes things more confusing.
Yep I agree. Humid Subtropical was the only area in which Koppen really got it wrong. He disregarded large seasonal range in favour of hot summers.

The term Humid Subtropical describes somewhere like Brisbane more accurately, than it does NYC. Warm Continental describes NYC well.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Trondheim, Norway - 63 N
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New categories in place of the old subarctic climate zone:

These climates have an average temperature above 10 °C (50 °F) in their warmest months, and a coldest month average below −3 °C (or 0 °C in some version).
No more than three months is above 10 C°.
Note: The boreal and hemiboreal climate needs a warmest month average of at least 13°C, if less the climate is still subarctic.



The first letter denotes mean annual temperature.
H -hemiboreal from 3 - 5C° mean annual
B - boreal from 0C - but less than 3°C mean annual
S - subarctic/ taiga -6 but less than 0°C mean annual (permafrost widespread)
P- hypersubarctic/ hypertaiga: below -6C° (very cold winters)


The second letter indicates the precipitation pattern — w indicates dry winters (driest winter month average precipitation less than one-tenth wettest summer month average precipitation; one variation also requires that the driest winter month have less than 30 mm average precipitation), s indicates dry summers (June, July and August in northern hemisphere?) (driest summer month less than 30 mm average precipitation and less than one-third wettest winter month precipitation) and f means significant precipitation in all seasons (neither above mentioned set of conditions fulfilled).

Some examples:
Fairbanks, Alaska: Sf - Subarctic with precipitation in all seasons (mean annual -2.8C)
Tromsø (100 m asl): Sf - Subarctic with precipitaiton in all seasons (summer too cool - 11.8C - for boreal, mean annual 2.5C)
Narvik, Norway: Hf - Hemiboreal with precipitaiton in all seasons (mean annual 3.8C, July average 13.4C)
Rovaniemi, Finland: Bf - Boreal with precipitation in all seasons (mean annual 0.9C, July 15.2C)

The reason for this summer threshold for boreal - 13C - is that summer warmth is very important for vegetation.

Last edited by Jakobsli; 11-08-2013 at 12:07 PM.. Reason: cutoff clearified, 0C is boreal, less is subarctic, added mean annual for tromsø, spelling
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Miami,FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78 View Post
We can add continental or oceanic but average annual temp is most important IMO. Somewhere like Sitka or Juneau, AK would be cold oceanic and Seattle and Portland would be warm oceanic. Vancouver is right on the line between the two. Same for continenral. Montreal and Toronto are cold continental whereas NYC and Philly are warm continental.
I would agree except that I think the wording for the pacific Northwest climate should be mild temperate not warm temperate.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamihurricane555 View Post
I would agree except that I think the wording for the pacific Northwest climate should be mild temperate not warm temperate.
It wouldn't be temperate. It would be Oceanic.

Temperate is a broader division that contains both Oceanic and Continental.

The idea is not to directly compare Oceanic and Continental climates, as the terms warm/cool would become problematic.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Rimini, Emilia-Romagna, Italy (44°0 N)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
It wouldn't be temperate. It would be Oceanic.

Temperate is a broader division that contains both Oceanic and Continental.

The idea is not to compare Oceanic and Continental climates, as the terms warm/cool would become problematic.
What is the threshold between oceanic and continental climates?
An annual temperature range of 20°C?
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:33 PM
 
Location: New Brunswick
2,439 posts, read 1,802,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Yep I agree. Humid Subtropical was the only area in which Koppen really got it wrong. He disregarded large seasonal range in favour of hot summers.

The term Humid Subtropical describes somewhere like Brisbane more accurately, than it does NYC. Warm Continental describes NYC well.
Admitly Auckland which seems to be just as much Subtropical as Oceanic has a mean summer average of 19.7°C so maybe the mean summer temperature for Subtropical Climates should be bumped down to 20°C from 22°C but no more than that.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,257 posts, read 20,192,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Yep I agree. Humid Subtropical was the only area in which Koppen really got it wrong. He disregarded large seasonal range in favour of hot summers.

The term Humid Subtropical describes somewhere like Brisbane more accurately, than it does NYC. Warm Continental describes NYC well.
I could add the Oceanic climate as well. Ok, understandable as the climate in most parts of the world was much colder over a 100 years ago, but IMHO cities like Prague are definitely not Oceanic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague#Climate
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