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Old 04-26-2014, 02:21 AM
 
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Oops! Should have had the lines curved up in the desert southwest...but for the east coast it looks pretty accurate.

As for what's subtropical...Fayetteville, North Carolina is close to what I consider an archetypical subtropical climate. Cool to chilly winters with little snow and hot summers.

Last edited by Caleb Yeung; 04-26-2014 at 02:30 AM..
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Old 01-27-2015, 07:44 PM
 
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The hot desert/semi-desert climates occupy a much larger area. The northernmost subtropical climates and the farthest ones inland are of course cooler than subtropical climates further south and nearer the coasts, but they are still indeed subtropical. There's a description applied to the northern Subtropical locations in the US and China that's called Subtropical Seasonal. Many parts of the Southeastern US, even Southern Illinois and Southern New Jersey, are capable of growing a great dirth of healthy subtropical plants and crops. Indeed, the US's Subtropical climes are warmer than China's. I'm not going to address the map, because I can't open it, but this is the most accurate description of the USA's environment I've seen:


USA: Alaska has an Arctic climate in it's northern region, a subarctic climate in it's central region, and an area of Oceanic Maritime in the Panhandle region. The USA is also one of the only countries to contain an ice cap climate, due to the Harding ice field in Alaska. The Upper-Midwest and the Northeast have a Humid Continental climate. Elsewhere, this climate is only found in very small pockets, such as around Flagstaff in Arizona, and a few small locations in Montana, Utah, and Colorado. A large region of Humid Subtropical extends from southern Illinois and southern New Jersey, which are the northernmost Subtropical climate locations in the United States, and extends westward, Encompassing all of Texas and Oklahoma and going in a curve through Southeastern Kansas and cutting through a small portion of southern Missouri and some Midwestern states. It extends as far south as Orlando and Tampa in Florida, and as far south as Brownsville in Texas, stopping just north of the southernmost portion of Texas and San Padre Island, which both have true Tropical Savanna climates. The cities on the southern border of this climate are practically tropical. The United States is one of only two countries in the world to have a Subtropical climate that extends so far inland, the other country being China, but the USA's subtropical climates are warmer. In both of these countries, the far northern Subtropical climates tend to mix more with the Continental climates, and therefore be cooler than ones further south, and contain more deciduous vegetation, but are still too warm year round to be considered Continental. In the case of the US, the central portion of the Deep South has extensive highland regions, which allows for a variety of Subtropical Highland climates to be present. In Northern Subtropical climates, as well as in South-Central highland locations, temperatures tend to be cooler, ice and even snow slightly more common, and vegetation tends to have a more deciduous nature, trees loosing their leaves in the fall, but getting them back quickly, some trees are evergreens, and subtropical ferns, magnolias, palms, and cypress will be found mixed in the further south one travels. These areas are still, however, pretty warm, the vegetation will appear fertile and lush throughout almost the whole year, and the area has an almost all year growing season. Southern Florida has a Tropical Monsoon climate surrounding Miami and central south Florida, as well as regions of Tropical Savanna and Tropical Rainforest climates. The southwest is a large hot desert climate with significant regions of hot semi-arid climates. To the north of this region lies a warm desert climate with regions of warm semi-arid climates. The west coast has a variety of Mediterranean climates extending from Southern California to southern Oregon, as well as somewhat far inland. Some areas of the northwest are often described as having cooler-variation Mediterranean climates. The Northwest contains a variety of Oceanic Maritime climates. Hawaii has a mixture of Tropical Savanna and Tropical Rainforest climates.

The Northeast contains rolling temperate broadleaf forests which extend into the Midwest. The Midwest features beautiful Great Lake scenery, quaint countryside, and deciduous vegetation. A small region of the North-central Appalachian's is considered a temperate rainforest. Southern Illinois and Southern New Jersey, as was previously said, mark the beginning of the true subtropical climates. They contain swamps in subtropical rainforests, warm and cool temperate forests, subtropical montane, and subtropical seasonal and dry forests, lush greenery throughout most of the year, and warmer temperatures. Subtropical forests that feature gum, tupelo, cypress, mahogany, loblolly and slash pine, live oak, magnolias, some species of palms, and azaleas populate the USA's southeastern region as far north as Kentucky and extreme southern Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio. South Florida contains extensive portions of tropical savanna, flooded or otherwise, with intermittent, smaller regions of lush tropical rainforest and oases referred to as tropical hardwood hammocks. White tropical beaches and mangrove plants populate the coasts of Florida, as well as Louisiana and Texas, and other areas along the Gulf Coast. An extensive portion of prairie, or savanna that encompasses climates from subtropical, to continental, and to semi-arid and arid is laid out in the middle portion of the country. Large, extensive regions of sweltering steppes extend from Texas and Oklahoma, projecting somewhat northward and then out towards the large, hot deserts and steppes of the southwest and the west that encompass California, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Colorado. Steppe surrounds these sandy and gravelly deserts, extending into Idaho, Montana, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, and further east. A warm desert region lies to the north of the hot desert region, and extends nearly to the Canadian border. This place also has extensive warm steppe locales. Mediterranean Chaparral lines the west coast, transitioning to temperate rainforests in the Northwest and in the Alaskan Panhandle. Temperate coniferous forests are located throughout many high altitude and far northern places in the country, general temperate broadleaf forests are scattered throughout the nation, as well as a subtropical/tropical variety of coniferous forests in the tropical deserts of the southwest. Alaska has extensive amounts of Taiga and, in the far north, Tundra. Hawaii has lush tropical rainforests and smaller regions of tropical dry forests and tropical savanna. Subtropical/tropical savanna is located in certain areas in the southeast and along the Gulf of Mexico.

Disasters: Tornadoes and intense Supercell Thunderstorms, Hurricanes and Tropical Storms, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Volcanic Eruptions, Blizzards and Permafrost, Bush Fires, Flash Floods and Standard Flooding, Mudslides and Landslides, Forest Fires, and Dust Storms

Coldest Temp: -80 F, Prospect Creek, Alaska

Hottest Temp: 134.78 F, Death Valley, California (WORLD RECORD)

Most Rainfall: 460 in, Mount Waialealea, Kauai, Hawaii

Highest Wind Speed: 318 MPH, Moore, Oklahoma (WORLD RECORD)

Highest Point: 20,236 ft, Mount Mckinley (Denali)

Lowest Point: 282 ft below sea level, Badwater Basin

Oranges and other citrus fruits have been grown as far north as southern Tennessee in the past, and are grown throughout the southeast and some desert west states. Rice is grown in areas of the country, and tropical Sugar Cane has been grown as far north as North Carolina and far southern Virginia. Cotton is grown throughout the south, as far north as southern Illinois, and fruits and edible crops like Mangosteen, Bananas, Limes, Figs, a species of Yam, Breadfruit, Star Fruit, Pineapple, Coffee, Coconuts, etc, grow in many places of Florida, Hawaii, Southern Texas, Coastal Louisiana, Coastal Georgia, far southern South Carolina, a small amount of locations in the southwest, some microclimates in the subtropical southeast, and in microclimates around San Francisco and other places in California. The US is the world's largest exporter of almonds, a subtropical crop that grows in many areas throughout the country. Tropical/subtropical Tea plantations are found in Washington, Michigan, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Georgia, Oregon, New York, Mississippi, and Hawaii. Tropical Dragon Fruit is grown in the tropical desert conditions of the Southwest. Subtropical vegetation stretches as far north as the extreme southern Midwest, getting more plentiful and dense the farther south one travels. Tropical vegetation starts appearing at the southern limit of the Deep South and becomes plentiful and lush in Southern Florida's, Far South Texas's, and Hawaii's tropical climates. Humid Subtropical and subtropical/tropical desert, steppe, and savanna vegetation lies as far north as Washington, and as Far East as Western Nebraska on the western side of the country. Temperate forests are scattered throughout the country, and are often considered warm temperate or subtropical if in the respective climate zone, and some of the vegetation is subtropical or tropical. Temperate coniferous forests are found in far northern and high elevation locations, and tropical coniferous forests are found in the Southwest. The tallest trees on earth, Redwoods, grow in the cool Mediterranean/Maritime region of Northern California and Southern Oregon. Tropical/subtropical vegetation gets so dense in places like the large southeastern region and Hawaii that areas are often called subtropical/tropical rainforests or, in the case of the South-central highlands and some locations of Hawaii, subtropical/tropical montane or seasonal forests. Temperate vegetation gets so dense in some small areas of the far east and large swathes of the Northwest and the Alaskan Panhandle, that they make up a temperate rainforest ecoregion. Taiga and scant Tundra vegetation is found in Central and Northern Alaska. Soybeans, Tobacco, Olives, Rice, Wheat, Fruits, Vegetables, Cotton, Sorghum, Maize, and Alfalfa are some examples of the USA's cash crops. Mangos, Kiwi, Guava, Palm Oil, Rubber Plants, Cassava, Cacao, Chili and Bell Peppers, Peanuts, etc, are all edible crops that have been grown in or are grown in certain regions of the USA. The country is considered extremely diverse in it's flora, climate, geography, and fauna, which is similar to that of China. Overall, warm climate flora is somewhat more dominant in the US.


You'd be surprised. The US has slight more warm climate vegetation than it does cold climate vegetation. Indeed, a lot of the US is actually pretty moderate. It's classified as a warm to hot climate country by climatologists. I mean, it has a larger tropical climatic region than China, is able to grow more tropical crops and plants, and it has a larger variety of warm climates. And, again, it's Subtropical climates are warmer.
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Old 02-17-2015, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Las Cruces NM
154 posts, read 137,165 times
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A good premise behind that BONAP map (also PRISM), and far better than Koppen's system. It looks consistent and promising, but needs work to be more useful - how about factoring in cold extremes, season of moisture, or even a few others?

A few of that map's glaring issues -
Warm-temperate...Nashville TN, Albuquerque NM, Sacramento CA average temps similar, but...
Humid temperate...Lincoln NE (prairie) and Pittsburgh PA (forest)
Subhumid...San Antonio TX (woodland, savanna) and Denver CO (short grasses)

That map is odd how it defines arid to humid...part is word definitions. Google street views and photos can help, so can knowledgeable people in different areas with local data. Geography seems to not be the strong suit of some even mappers; it's also where one wants to draw the line, or what another wants to see vs. what's present.

Someday, I'll finish my rough US maps (no GIS ability), but I overlay ocean vs/continental influences, then moisture, temperature, and natural vegetation. That might add to the conversation, and be more consistent with what many see.

Last edited by nmdesert; 02-17-2015 at 12:06 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-31-2017, 03:04 AM
 
Location: Far Southwestern Virginia
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Firstly, I must say I do like the map you have presented and I do roughly perceive the United States in this way in regard to climate also keep in mind this message only takes the eastern United States into context. Now, in reality climate types fade gradually and are unnoticeable with the exception of mountain ranges. Of course, even knowing this there is always a desire in the human mind for rigid definition and division. This is the catalyst of the entire debate regarding the humid sub-tropical region within the United States. Keep in mind this message only takes the eastern United States into context. The argument however is not mainly caused by the region designated as such but instead in how it is worded, that being (Humid Sub-tropical). When one thinks of the word tropical immediately one conjures pictures of lush rain-forests, Savannas, and hot deserts. To properly sum up it is seen as perpetual summer. One would assume of course that if somewhere is Sub- (insert category here) it would fall within it. This is not the case when referring to a sub-tropical climate. Instead it is at least perceived as a buffer zone between a tropical and temperate climate. This arises 1 of the 3 problems I see with this. That being those within the assumed buffer zone with a climate resembling more temperate-like conditions than tropical will find reason to debate the use of the term tropical. Another problem that arises is that the Koppen-Geiger climate classification system does not use the words tropical or temperate as broadly with the categories of arid and continental added. For example, if you were to ask people in continental climates if they lived in a temperate region more than likely most people residing in Dfa and Dfb zones would respond with yes and those in Dfc would likely say no. That is because the word temperate is often used as a synonym for 4 distinct seasons and although slightly off-topic it is probably worth mentioning those within the Dfc zone (taiga) also are too warm to be considered polar. This creates a similar conflict as to the one I am covering. Finally, people will usually more easily identify with their Eco-region than their climate type as not only are averages in just climate a factor but so are climate extremes and soil type. The full and "correct"(at least to me) term for the south eastern United States climate excluding Florida and the higher areas of the Appalachians is Cfa. (Temperate, without dry season, hot summer) In my specific situation where I live in far southwestern Virginia it is border line continental due to the Appalachian Mountains but not quite under definition. Yet not only does where I reside not even remotely resemble somewhere someone may consider sub-tropical, it also is quite distinct in that it does not resemble the southern 2/3rds of the Cfa zone ecologically. So, it is easy to understand people’s aversion to the term especially in my case. Where my climates averages and records in temperature are as follows. July average high 83F, average low 61F, Record high 102F. January average high 43F, average low 21F, Record low -21F.
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Middlesex County, MA
399 posts, read 294,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Our avg low in January is 25F, so even 12F is very low. Yes Hattiesburg, MS is warmer than here. The avg Jan high/low there is 59/37F. We average 2 days with a min temp of 10F or less each year, so 12F for us here is considered quite cold. 4 out of the last ten years didn't go below 12F.

I still maintain the US South has to be the only place on the planet where temps can get so cold so far south in latitude and at sea level. If Hattiesburg were in China they could grow oranges commercially, and I'll bet their winter extreme min temp would be higher.
Shanghai is south of Hattiesburg, has a lower elevation, is a coastal city while Hattiesburg is inland, and still has considerably colder winters. China also has a TON of cities which are BELOW the Tropic of Cancer and still have subtropical climates (Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Macau, Shenzhen, Haikou, etc.). Meanwhile the Continental US is ALL ABOVE the Tropic of Cancer and still has true tropical climates along the southern tip of Florida, especially on the East Coast. The US reliably has warmer climates than China along similar latitudes or even considerably higher.

This is true whether you go north or south. For instance, Boston is north of Shenyang, but its January mean temperature is 17F warmer than Shenyang's. Boston is even warmer than Beijing, despite Beijing being even further south. Only the southern part of Hainan has a tropical climate, despite the fact that even the northern part is well south of the Tropic of Cancer and is located on an island. I really don't know where you got the impression that China was warmer than the US relative to latitude, when in fact it's the exact opposite despite the fact that China goes further south than not only the Continental US but also all of the Hawaiian islands.
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Middlesex County, MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamihurricane555 View Post
I don't have much experience with the colder climates but for the tropical/semi-tropical/ and sub tropical climates I'll make some suggestions. the areas in the lower 48 that ppl argue r tropical go into the semi-tropical category. reason being is that not even key west is warm enough in winter for tropical plants to continue their growth, they must go dominant which is clearly something a true tropical climate wouldn't do. next is sub-topical is limited to USDA hardness zone 9+. areas subjected to colder temps than that go down as Warm temperate.
How is Key West not a true tropical climate? Never had a frost, and not only is the mean temperature above 64F in every single month, but the average LOW is still above 64F in the coldest month. The record low for Key West is 41F, which is only 1.8F colder than the record low for Havana. Are you going to argue that Havana isn't tropical either?
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Middlesex County, MA
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Originally Posted by Caleb Yeung View Post
This doesn't take elevation into account, but it gives you an idea of what's not warm, what's subtropical, and what's more like tropical:
LOL. You could spend days picking that apart. L.A. has warmer winters than ALL of the cities in the subtropical section, and even most of the semi-tropical too. L.A. has warmer winters than Jacksonville despite being several hundred miles to the north. New Mexico is cold, especially at night, due to the elevation. You have to go to Daytona Beach and south of there in Florida, as well as down to Brownsville and South Padre Island in Texas, to get warmer winters than L.A. The record low in L.A. is also 21F warmer than for Jacksonville.
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Old 07-31-2017, 06:47 AM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
7,463 posts, read 6,996,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rose View Post
Shanghai is south of Hattiesburg, has a lower elevation, is a coastal city while Hattiesburg is inland, and still has considerably colder winters. China also has a TON of cities which are BELOW the Tropic of Cancer and still have subtropical climates (Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Macau, Shenzhen, Haikou, etc.). Meanwhile the Continental US is ALL ABOVE the Tropic of Cancer and still has true tropical climates along the southern tip of Florida, especially on the East Coast. The US reliably has warmer climates than China along similar latitudes or even considerably higher.

This is true whether you go north or south. For instance, Boston is north of Shenyang, but its January mean temperature is 17F warmer than Shenyang's. Boston is even warmer than Beijing, despite Beijing being even further south. Only the southern part of Hainan has a tropical climate, despite the fact that even the northern part is well south of the Tropic of Cancer and is located on an island. I really don't know where you got the impression that China was warmer than the US relative to latitude, when in fact it's the exact opposite despite the fact that China goes further south than not only the Continental US but also all of the Hawaiian islands.
I agree with you, North America is warmer in winter latitude for latitude.
I think tom77falcons argument that NA is "colder" than China is record coldest temps
are lower. For example, Tallahassee, Florida at 30N has a record cold temp of -19C / -1F.
Less winter stability from eastern seaboard to the Rockies, west of the Rockies winter temps are more stable.
Hence no growing commercial citrus north of Florida.
No question North America winter average winter temps are warmer,
Shanghai is at 31N and struggles with a 8C average jan high, Brunswick, Georgia USA it's more like 18C,
huge difference! Homestead, just south of Miami has an average jan high of almost 26C,
Homstead is at 26N, nowhere at that latitude in China comes close.
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,644 posts, read 13,537,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
I agree with you, North America is warmer in winter latitude for latitude.
I think tom77falcons argument that NA is "colder" than China is record coldest temps
are lower. For example, Tallahassee, Florida at 30N has a record cold temp of -19C / -1F.
Less winter stability from eastern seaboard to the Rockies, west of the Rockies winter temps are more stable.
Hence no growing commercial citrus north of Florida.
No question North America winter average winter temps are warmer,
Shanghai is at 31N and struggles with a 8C average jan high, Brunswick, Georgia USA it's more like 18C,
huge difference! Homestead, just south of Miami has an average jan high of almost 26C,
Homstead is at 26N, nowhere at that latitude in China comes close.

China is far more stable in winter. No one can argue it isn't on a year by year basis. And yes I was referring more to growing zones. Shanghai may be colder than Savannah by averages, but by growing zone it is warmer and doesn't have an avg winter min of 19F/20F. Shanghai has a warmer average winter min temperature. I'm not going to argue with John Rose cause he is talking oranges and I'm talking apples.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:36 AM
 
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It is the most accurate map I have found, good resolution even delineates the counties well and the humid subtropical is not an exaggeratedly long range. However it was a bit confusing the system used, I have the impression that you used the three main classifications together, although this is incomparable with other maps and without the criteria of this hybrid classification to understand, the map was good, I find interesting this difference of the deep south with the southeastern and hot continental interior passed by New York.
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