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Mobile, AL is 30 miles from the coast of the Gulf. Myrtle Beach right on the ocean. What is the record low temp at Dauphin Island, AL. I'll bet it is higher than Myrtle Beach. Records don't go back far enough. Just look at the 1980's. Dauphin Island didn't get nearly as cold as Myrtle. Dauphin Island 9F in 1985. Charleston 6F in 1985. Why aren't they native on Dauphin Island?
because they would have to spread past Fort Walton Beach and Pensacola?
a cold front from 1985 might have affected Charleston, SC more directly than Dauphin Island, AL and a 1989 cold front vice versa.
i agree Mobile, AL is not a good example but it is fairly close to the water. Mobile bay should not be ignored.
regardless, my point wasn't that it was definitive. it is obviously not definitive. my point was that we can't rule out the possibility that temperatures were involved in limiting the natural range of the Sabal past St. Andrews Bay.
Last edited by Sir Goosenseresworthie; 04-05-2015 at 03:48 PM..
Jacksonville Beach, FL record low is 14°F/-10°C
Daytona Beach, FL record low is 15°F/-9°C
hence why populations are patchy beyond 28°N.
no, i mean hundreds growing in the wild in my area that i can see from the road. my backyard faces a natural swamp with dozens of red maples. they are plentiful in Florida.
the red maple is hardly the only deciduous tree that is also native to the deep south.
the deep south currently has more cold weather plants in the habitat than your so called "tropical" plants...
so what is the moral of the story?
the deep south is not tropical...
the deep south is not continental...
the deep south is a transitional zone between the continental north and the tropics to the south (aka subtropical). the deep south has influence from both.
it is not a subtropical paradise. it is in fact more extreme than many other subtropical climates around the world due to its continental influence.
I've said this repeatedly to both him and Wavehunter to no avail. That is why I gave up. Anyone looking at climate data will tell you that.
I'm wondering though when the 1980's type temps will return to the South. That was incredible cold not seen there since the late 1800's. No one seems to know what was going on in the 80's, but no one can deny it was one of the coldest decades ever. 1962 and 63 were pretty cold as well, but just not as cold as the 80's. I should add the late 1970's to that so you have from 1977 to 1989 being very cold. And all going on during this supposed "global warming".
In the 80's Queen Palms were killed outright in Orlando, FL as well as the decimation of the citrus growing regions. If a decade like that returns, there will be many dead palms in Florida and the SE.
I've said this repeatedly to both him and Wavehunter to no avail. That is why I gave up. Anyone looking at climate data will tell you that.
yea i guess he has heard that before, who knows maybe 11th time's a charm...
but one more thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
Look, I understand that such cold hard facts can be damaging to weak and fragile minds, but those facts will always be there; you have to learn to take them.
lol are you trying to get on everyone's nerves?
your leaf argument is fairly weak. it may be true... but frankly it doesn't mean much of anything...
i'll have to post some pictures of the leaf structure of my red maples. last i checked they were somewhat "toothed" just like the ones in Virginia and Kentucky. The "entire" leaf structure seems to be limited to South Florida (aka areas that don't see a frost every year).
and i didn't see where it said transplants of red maples from Florida would die in Canada. this is still the same tree species! if it weren't they would reclassify it!
Maybe full grown specimens would die if transplanted to Canada because it would be a shock to what they were accustomed to in their lifetime. but I bet if you took seeds from the Florida tree and grew a new sapling in Canada it would be fine. it is the same species.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
I'm wondering though when the 1980's type temps will return to the South. That was incredible cold not seen there since the late 1800's. No one seems to know what was going on in the 80's, but no one can deny it was one of the coldest decades ever. 1962 and 63 were pretty cold as well, but just not as cold as the 80's. I should add the late 1970's to that so you have from 1977 to 1989 being very cold. And all going on during this supposed "global warming".
In the 80's Queen Palms were killed outright in Orlando, FL as well as the decimation of the citrus growing regions. If a decade like that returns, there will be many dead palms in Florida and the SE.
agreed. people keep pushing the envelope of hardiness zones just because we had a few good decades...
i'm not prepared to say if we are warming or not in florida. i don't think either side has enough data to conclude one way or another...
Last edited by Sir Goosenseresworthie; 04-05-2015 at 06:48 PM..
The 80's cold was the work of the Cold Epoch, nothing more. Once the Cold Epoch disappears, the US South will return back to its natural climactic state, with no chance of ever getting cold.
No, the US South is a subtropical climate to the core; it is a BEAST subtropical climate, an Eden if you will. Plentiful rain AND Sun, a perfect combination of tropical beautify during summer, and Med glory during winter; it is a climactic orgasm. As soon as the plantation owners reaped the success of their cotton, indigo, and sugar plantations, they knew they had settled in the Promised Land, the Southern US. Paradise at its finest.
I guess it's subjective, but I don't see the South as paradise - too hot and humid for too long. Not a healthy climate overall, without the benefits of modern technology
Paradise needs a sea breeze. A cooling breeze on a hot day is one of the finest features a climate can have.
No, the US South is a subtropical climate to the core; it is a BEAST subtropical climate, an Eden if you will. Plentiful rain AND Sun, a perfect combination of tropical beautify during summer, and Med glory during winter; it is a climactic orgasm. As soon as the plantation owners reaped the success of their cotton, indigo, and sugar plantations, they knew they had settled in the Promised Land, the Southern US. Paradise at its finest.
No, the U.S. South isn't close to paradise, much too hot in the summer! Also, the rain and sun is good for growing plants like cotton and indigo, but that doesn't mean it's basically tropical like you say. I live in the south and we have regular frost in the winter with a couple snows. However, palmetto trees do barely manage to survive here in Upstate SC, although they look a lot sicker than the ones down in the warmer coastal regions, being short with a few, browned leaves.
@Yn0hTnA
you are spewing a lot of conjecture, half of those animals you mentioned do not have a native range in the deep south based on your links.
South Florida is not the deep south. the deep south ends at North Florida.
The White Hickory, Red Maple, Elm, and Hackberry are trees that grow primarily in temperate/continental climates, not tropical climates. The deep south is a transitional zone with many temperate/continental species growing within it. I mention this to counter your mangrove argument.
Mangroves don't grow well outside of South Florida anyway. the range in Africa is probably limited by the Sahara desert... or some other variable other than temperature.
You can't make continental influence disappear. you would need North America to puff out of existence to eliminate the chance of cold snaps in the deep south.
i'll get back to you tomorrow about my red maple leaves... not that it means much
i see you totally skipped over the important bits that actually matter like whether or not saplings grown in Canada from seeds in Florida would survive. (they probably would)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90
I guess it's subjective, but I don't see the South as paradise - too hot and humid for too long. Not a healthy climate overall, without the benefits of modern technology
Paradise needs a sea breeze. A cooling breeze on a hot day is one of the finest features a climate can have.
and its not subjective. everyone keeps their house near 70°F/21°C right? (maybe 75°F/23°C or 68°F/20°C, 60°F-80°F range)
people that say they like extremes or cold weather or hot weather would run away if they had to live in those environments without a climate controlled building and without modern technology. shivering at night and sweating bullets in the heat gets old rather quickly, especially when you have nowhere to go to escape from it when you don't feel like it anymore.
Last edited by Sir Goosenseresworthie; 04-05-2015 at 09:10 PM..
my neighbors were giving me strange looks as i took pictures of dead leaves... but it was for science...
the red maple i took samples from:
dead leaves from last season:
new leaves pulled from the tree:
my leaves look a lot more like the Canadian ones don't they
the Canada vs Florida comparison was probably for South Florida leaves. the graph from a few posts above indicates that the major changes in the leaf structure happen in coastal South Florida.
My area near St. Augustine, FL is one of the warmest areas of the deep south. (alongside New Orleans, LA)
...and so that i don't look too off topic from the thread here are some saw palmettos:
I just read today that from a Finnish-German study that our birches and spruces probably can't take the benefits from global warming fully, as their 5000 yo genealogy are insufficient to adapt. Instead so other species, like lime, alder and aspen don't take over in areas, we should import seeds from the Balkans and the Alpine region. The salix species are supposedly unstoppable, but if we don't deliberately want to change our ecosystem, or take active countermeasures our forests in the south can change from this:
To more like this in just a matter of 80 years:
One big reason is of course less snow and frost heaving, which is more beneficial for oceanic-like vegetation than taigalike.
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