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So, which is it? Of course it's great to be able to grow a wide variety of palms, but why must tropical plants be the measure of a subtropical climate?
The coastal deep south is in fact a thriving subtropical climate with a uniquely suited biome that is found in neither tropical nor continental climates:
This is true; however, I show examples of tropical plants just to add that extra measure of debunking the notion that the South is sooo prone to cold compared to any other subtropical region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude
The cold epoch thing though is nonsense. If there was a real cold epoch it would affect the entire interior of the country east and west. The Sierras/Cascades and Rockies run at a SW angle and block a lot of cold fronts from heading down. Also, the East to West turning of the Earth means that weather patterns move (outside of hurricanes) from West to East. Unfortunately the massive rocky mountain range nlocks most of the warm oceanic air from travelling further East. Consequently, the eastern area of the USA depends entirely on the Jet Stream to ascertain its weather. And with cold air marching down from Canada and warm air from the gulf uninpeded the weather is often unstable.
No, it is the true cause for these times of cold in the US South; just take a look at the native flora and fauna, and you can tell that the region's ecosystem evolved under a warm climate. How else would the waters along the southern shoreline hold one of the largest barrier reef ecosystems on the planet?
The reason the East US, and not the West, is affected by this Cold Epoch at this time is because the phenomenon perturbs the jet-stream into the prevailing East-dipping, West-rising pattern, hence the dichotomy. In a natural climactic state, the weather won't be so dichotomous like that across the country; stability would be the rule in the US South (which is already quite stable even with this effect).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
The "coastal south" is what? A tiny strip about 10 miles wide. Once you get any distance inland the lows that occur every few years would kill everthing subtropical. Again, just how subtropical looking is Columbus, GA or Macon, GA, etc. ? In the rest of the world, the subtropical region isn't so severly limited by Arctic blasts.
Also you are wrong about twice a century. If you look at the data as I showed, every 20 years even somewhere like Savannah will drop down cold enough to kill everything but the most cold hardy sabal palmetto. The only palm long term cold hardy in the deep coastal south is sabal palmetto.
None of those flora mentioned are particularly cold hardy at all. They just like hot summers and humidity. The winters in northern Europe wouldn't kill any of those. In my region yes it would be killed cause we get much colder than Western Europe as does where you live.
None of those areas looks remotely subtropical in winter. And I would say they don't look much different than where I live. A major reason is the dead brown grass you see on lawns and highway medians. The summers are so hot, they are stuck growing heat loving grass that turns dead brown in winter. Hence, the deep south landscape looks very brown in winter.
I asked for pics of Columbia SC or anywhere there showing green in winter. No one has posted cause it does look very brown. Just go back thru the winter photo thread and look at pics from Louisiana. It looks no different than PA in winter.
No, in the rest of the world, the subtropical regime does not extend that far inland; most are just limited to areas in proximity to the coast. North America's subtropical regime actually extends well into the interior of the continent, unlike those on other continents. So it makes sense that the most subtropical-looking parts of the South would be right along the coastline.
If you think those cities look just like Philly during winter, then I have a bridge to sell you. The more and more you post, the more I feel you just don't get out much. Travel a bit more across the US, and get back to me.
And such cold does not happen every twenty years; its been over 20 years since the extreme 80s cold, and those events are caused by the Cold Epoch, which is slowly coming to an end. This talk of cold in this South is basically going to be confined to the story books in some time.
You are right, Spanish moss, and other plants of the South are NOT COLD HARDY at all; they are quite tender, relative to some other representative specimen from the subtropics of other continents.
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Originally Posted by tommyFL
There are more deciduous trees in the Southeast U.S. because it has the occasional freezing period some seeds need to germinate. Other subtropical climates around the world don't have these trees because their winter temps are more stable. Evergreens are the norm in these areas, even with cool winter averages.
BS. Just because a tree is deciduous does not mean it is a cold-climate tree; crepe myrtles, which grow in the subtropics/tropics of India and China, are deciduous. The tropical Royal Poincianna trees are also deciduous, as are jacaranda trees. Many of the same deciduous plants growing in the South, such as Sugar Hackberry, can be found growing out on the island of Bermuda, where temps have never gone below 40F; no freezing temps at all, yet those deciduous trees still grow.
Napa Valley in California has loads of deciduous trees, enough to rank as once of the top places for fall color in the US; yet the climate is mild, freezes rare. In fact, Southern California has loads of native deciduous tree species, and we all know how mild the climate is. Maples are growing in quite well in tropical South Florida. Other subtropical regions do, in fact, have deciduous trees growing around, and in the wild too.
In a lot of the South, the forests are not at their true climax state, which is that of evergreen forest; areas of decidious forests, alot of the time, represnt areas that used to be pine-savannah, before acts of fire-suppression. After such acts, deciduous trees were able to take over, because the fire was gone, and the soil, the xeric sandy type preferred by pines, was unsuitable to evergreens, but deciduous trees were hardy enough to take over. However, the climate has been warm, and wet enough for quite a while, and the true climax subtropical forest has been in emergence; check out the understories in many Southern forests, all decked with evergreen trees like Hollies, and magnolias, with palmettos ringed around. Those trees are growing to a point that they will take over the forests, and allow the true climax ecosystem to take shape.
Nice cherry picking bro; your Valencia pictures were only of pampered gardens, with one view (second) where you try to pass of dry rocky scrub as green. They irony is that I saw more green in the Deep South pic (all natural by the way) than of the first two Valencia pictures ( and the very first was a pampered garden).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Those aren't broadleaf evergreens in your streetview. The more subtropical a climate, the more broadleaf evergreens there should be. Interesting that the US South has so many conifers in a subtropical climate.
There are both broadleaf evergreens and pine evergreens in that street view. Those conifers of the South, the pines, all are wholly subtropical; the pine subsection they hail from has tropical affinities, with members being found even out on the Carribean Isles. Other subtropical areas have pines as well, such as the Med, subtropical Australia, and subtropical South America. Pines can even be found in equatorial regions, like on the island of Sumatra. Pinus merkusii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyFL
Yes, it does look dead. How could it not look that way, considering the extreme winter negative anomalies the region experiences? Even this far south on the FL peninsula, we had a daily mean 20F below normal in February. Even inland cities in China don't get those departures.
Cold Epoch at work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyFL
No point arguing with him. Most people have given up, but there are still some on here that haven't got the idea that a sensible discussion is impossible with him. Anyone can look at the data to see that the Southeast experiences more extremes than other subtropical climates. Apparently that's not good enough for him. Some barely hardy "tropical" shrub in Galveston is more important. The cold epoch will disappear once the oceans boil and the Earth is torched by a dying sun. That is when his subtropical paradise becomes a reality, long after we are gone.
Your right, those plants of Galveston are BARELY HARDY; they are quite tender subtropical, even tropical plants, and TREES, and yet the look quite happy on Galveston. Such utter warmth must be present during winter for that to happen.
Look around, and see all the armadillos, possums, anolis lizards, flamingoes, roseate spoon bills, ibises, alligators, coatis, coral, and anhingas all roaming freely in the South. Those are all tropical animals that have natural ranges up to the Southern US. Tropical animals even become invasive in the region, like the Burmese Python, fire ants, coypus, and killer bees. Do you know how warm a climate has to be year-round for TROPICAL animals to become invasive? And I won't even get into details about the plants.
I look at data too, but I also make sure to consider other important pieces of evidence, like the natural occurrences of such organisms in the South, to make a final judgement about the climate. You amateur climatologists, however, only focus on the data, and neglect such important pieces of evidence, causing you all to miss the lurking variables that influence such data.
^^ Lol look on google maps around the Valencia area, and any winter taken shot will show you vast amounts of evergreen paradise I didn't cherry pick areas, I just had to find places that had winter shots. There is absolutely no contest, nowhere at that latitude in the US has evergreen areas like Valencia. Even places at 35N cannot come close
^^ Lol look on google maps around the Valencia area, and any winter taken shot will show you vast amounts of evergreen paradise I didn't cherry pick areas, I just had to find places that had winter shots. There is absolutely no contest, nowhere at that latitude in the US has evergreen areas like Valencia. Even places at 35N cannot come close
That "evergreen paradise" of Valencia is either pampered gardens and/or farms, or scraggly Med scrub across the rocks; you are not showing me NATURAL areas of lush, verdant green vegetation of Valencia in those pictures. On the other hand, in your attempt to try(and fail) to demonstrate how "dead" the South is during winter with the Georgia pic, you actually showed large areas of NATURAL verdant green vegetation during winter, complete with a thick forest in the background, far more than in any of those pics of Valencia.
There are plenty of areas in the US at the latitude of Valencia that blow the city away in terms of winter green; look no further than Northern California, and up through the Pacific Northwest. By 35N, places just get even greener during winter. On the East Coast, at 35N, coastal North Carolina is decked with subtropical forest, complete with wild palmetto, and when you explore the coastal forest, you'd swear you were in Jurassic Park. Nothing in all of the Med comes close to that jungle like feel you get in the South, especially coastal areas, even during winter.
I notice that you did not address the rest of my post. I guess my ownage of all my opponents on this forum was too epic for you to handle.
That "evergreen paradise" of Valencia is either pampered gardens and/or farms, or scraggly Med scrub across the rocks; you are not showing me NATURAL areas of lush, verdant green vegetation of Valencia in those pictures. On the other hand, in your attempt to try(and fail) to demonstrate how "dead" the South is during winter with the Georgia pic, you actually showed large areas of NATURAL verdant green vegetation during winter, complete with a thick forest in the background, far more than in any of those pics of Valencia.
There are plenty of areas in the US at the latitude of Valencia that blow the city away in terms of winter green; look no further than Northern California, and up through the Pacific Northwest. By 35N, places just get even greener during winter. On the East Coast, at 35N, coastal North Carolina is decked with subtropical forest, complete with wild palmetto, and when you explore the coastal forest, you'd swear you were in Jurassic Park. Nothing in all of the Med comes close to that jungle like feel you get in the South, especially coastal areas, even during winter.
I notice that you did not address the rest of my post. I guess my ownage of all my opponents on this forum was too epic for you to handle.
Lol no, you're just a troll and I don't take your bait
Even in a cold winter, still looks lush and green up at 51N.
That's exactly why I don't see why having more deciduous trees makes a place less subtropical. While I wouldn't say it's lush here in the winter, it is largely green, greener than parts of the interior south. It doesn't mean my area is more subtropical than those areas.
That's exactly why I don't see why having more deciduous trees makes a place less subtropical. While I wouldn't say it's lush here in the winter, it is largely green, greener than parts of the interior south. It doesn't mean my area is more subtropical than those areas.
But those streetviews from England in Jan 2009 are more lush green in winter than anything you would see in the Mid-Atlantic or interior South. There seem to be more broadleaf evergreens around than here. They are mostly planted in the UK and not native, since I don't think there are many native broadleaf evergreens in the British Isles.
The major problem with the interior south imo is that dead brown grass they all use. Our grass here, with colder winters, generally stays far more green than that winter hay they all have on their highway medians and lawns. When you combine the leafless trees, with the brown grass, it makes it look as dead as inland Canada lol. Many subtropical climates, or even most, have some leafless trees in winter, but when surrounded with lush green grass does not look nearly as "dead".
And that points out one of the problems with their climate. They get so hot in summer they need hot weather loving grasses, since no one wants dead grass in summer. But then when winter comes those tropical grasses cannot take temps down below 32F. Only deep down into Florida does warm season grass stay green in winter. One night of 32F and it turns brown. I see it happen here with the few lawns that use it. Every year in November their grass quickly turns totally brown.
So, it is the extreme continental nature of the southern climate that mars it. When you get such heat in summer, and then the winter gets very cold spells, it reveals the fact the south is continental mixed with mild winter "averages". If their winters were more stable and they only dropped 10F below their winter low mean temps, it would be more like a lush green paradise in winter. But it doesn't. It goes 20-30F below average every winter. That is brutal. It is more of a strange hybrid of subtropical and continental than anywhere else.
Columbus, GA in winter 2014 dropped 27F below avg, 19F below avg, and 24F below avg. Winter 2015 they dropped 23F below, 24F below, and 23F below. What else in the world at 32N and sea level drops that far below average that often? I would guess no where.
If summers there were more like our summer weather, then combined with their winters, their grass would stay green all year round and make a big difference in the winter look.
They are mostly planted in the UK and not native, since I don't think there are many native broadleaf evergreens in the British Isles.
The most common broadleaf evergreen trees/plants in the UK are laurel, eucalyptus, rhododendron, holly and box. Pines, cypresses, cordylines, gorse, yew and juniper are common too, but not broadleaf.
Holly and box are native, rhododendron and laurel are invasive species. Eucalyptus is from Australia. All of the non-broadleaf evergreens are native, with the exception of the cypresses and cordylines which are from the Middle East and Oceania respectively.
But those streetviews from England in Jan 2009 are more lush green in winter than anything you would see in the Mid-Atlantic or interior South. There seem to be more broadleaf evergreens around than here. They are mostly planted in the UK and not native, since I don't think there are many native broadleaf evergreens in the British Isles.
The major problem with the interior south imo is that dead brown grass they all use. Our grass here, with colder winters, generally stays far more green than that winter hay they all have on their highway medians and lawns. When you combine the leafless trees, with the brown grass, it makes it look as dead as inland Canada lol. Many subtropical climates, or even most, have some leafless trees in winter, but when surrounded with lush green grass does not look nearly as "dead".
And that points out one of the problems with their climate. They get so hot in summer they need hot weather loving grasses, since no one wants dead grass in summer. But then when winter comes those tropical grasses cannot take temps down below 32F. Only deep down into Florida does warm season grass stay green in winter. One night of 32F and it turns brown. I see it happen here with the few lawns that use it. Every year in November their grass quickly turns totally brown.
So, it is the extreme continental nature of the southern climate that mars it. When you get such heat in summer, and then the winter gets very cold spells, it reveals the fact the south is continental mixed with mild winter "averages". If their winters were more stable and they only dropped 10F below their winter low mean temps, it would be more like a lush green paradise in winter. But it doesn't. It goes 20-30F below average every winter. That is brutal. It is more of a strange hybrid of subtropical and continental than anywhere else.
Columbus, GA in winter 2014 dropped 27F below avg, 19F below avg, and 24F below avg. Winter 2015 they dropped 23F below, 24F below, and 23F below. What else in the world at 32N and sea level drops that far below average that often? I would guess no where.
If summers there were more like our summer weather, then combined with their winters, their grass would stay green all year round and make a big difference in the winter look.
what are you talking about you talk about the south as you live here yet you live no where near it. now your saying Philadelphia is greener than the south? there is plenty of green grass in winter here yes Bermuda grass is the most common here but in winter it turns tan and no where near brown. there are only 2 things that separate winter from spring here, the temperature and the deciduous trees actually 3 when I include the grass. and grass here changes color based on SOIL TEMPS. Bermuda grass goes dormant and changes color once the soil temp goes below 55. a sunny winters day even when its 40 degrees here doesn't feel all that cold. birds everywhere chirping still bugs around crickets chirping in daytime. winter is lively here. funny how now people all the way in Europe and other parts of this country and earth are here talking about the south as if they live here and almost all people who actually live in the south who have posted here have posted something very contrary to what these guys are saying lol.
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I didn't cherry pick areas, I just had to find places that had winter shots. There is absolutely no contest, nowhere at that latitude in the US has evergreen areas like Valencia. Even places at 35N cannot come close
