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Thing is those 60 F lows in mid January typically occur because of S to SW winds prior to the approach of a cold front. It's also usually accompanied by precipitation, and the cloud cover from that front can prevent nighttime temperatures from dropping. Once the front passes through, it's back to subfreezing lows for a few nights. That's pretty much the norm every winter in New Orleans, Mobile, Savannah, and Charleston.
This is dead on. As someone who used to live in Charleston I agree wholeheartedly. I remember going on vacation and coming back to SC and went jogging and it was drizzling and 68 degrees at 10 pm. I thought man "this is going to be a warm winter." Of course this was followed by a week of freezing temperatures with lows in the low 20s and highs in the 30s and 40s. After this I came to figure out the pattern. It would be occasionally warm in the winter (70s) and I would immediately go do an outdoor activity. Because a few days later it would cycle cold weather down and be freezing again. Temperatures usually bottomed out each winter in the upper teens making the area an 8b climate. Luckily it was warm enough most of the winter that the subtropical plants would brown out and get some deep freeze damage but usually wouldn't totally die off.
Mobile and especially New Orleans are a bit warmer being right near water and further south and though they cycle through cold and warm temperatures, they're less likely to have temperatures below 20-25F most years. Moderate frosts intermittently 2-3 weeks a year with highs between 45-75F still supports some subtropical gardening, a variety of palms, and is overall pleasant enough in the day to go outside.
Thing is those 60 F lows in mid January typically occur because of S to SW winds prior to the approach of a cold front. It's also usually accompanied by precipitation, and the cloud cover from that front can prevent nighttime temperatures from dropping. Once the front passes through, it's back to subfreezing lows for a few nights. That's pretty much the norm every winter in New Orleans, Mobile, Savannah, and Charleston.
Exactly. Such southerly wind flow, and accompanying mild conditions, would be the constant experience in the South when the region is in its natural climate, in the absence of strong frontal passages. You can clearly see that such warmth would be lasting if not for the fronts coming through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
I despise winter instability and the eastern half of the US is the king of the hill in that regard. And most of the South is just a continental climate with freak winters.
And climate fail because of the extreme cold at such low latitude sea level climates. Many parts of the world oceans and mountains take care of that, but not here. What other city at the latitude and elevation of Orlando, FL has had millions of dollars of losses and thousands and thousands of acres of citrus trees killed outright due to winter cold?
Anyways, if you think the South is a continental climate, then you clearly have no idea what continental means at all. The Great Plains is a continental region, not the South.
And the US does have bodies of water, and mountains to take care of the cold; ever heard of the Ozarks, the Great Lakes, or the Appalachians? And the Gulf of Mexico always sends warm moist air to buffer the region from the brunt of change induced by fronts. Sometimes, cold air can make it past any barrier, and induce below average temps in an area from time to time, like citrus killing cold in Orlando. Such an event happens on every continent; check out China during a period of cold so severe, that places that normally grew citrus had to stop. How about Med Europe, where even Lisbon had blizzards? In Australia, Townsville, very close to the equator at 19N, almost had a freeze recorded.
Last edited by nei; 06-11-2015 at 09:04 AM..
Reason: response to deleted post
Exactly. Such southerly wind flow, and accompanying mild conditions, would be the constant experience in the South when the region is in its natural climate, in the absence of strong frontal passages. You can clearly see that such warmth would be lasting if not for the fronts coming through.
You do realize that these southerly wind flows are just as anomalous as those strong frontal passages right? You could say just as easily that in its "natural climatic state" (whatever that means) it would have constant arctic flows, which is absolutely ridiculous to say.
This is dead on. As someone who used to live in Charleston I agree wholeheartedly. I remember going on vacation and coming back to SC and went jogging and it was drizzling and 68 degrees at 10 pm. I thought man "this is going to be a warm winter." Of course this was followed by a week of freezing temperatures with lows in the low 20s and highs in the 30s and 40s. After this I came to figure out the pattern. It would be occasionally warm in the winter (70s) and I would immediately go do an outdoor activity. Because a few days later it would cycle cold weather down and be freezing again. Temperatures usually bottomed out each winter in the upper teens making the area an 8b climate. Luckily it was warm enough most of the winter that the subtropical plants would brown out and get some deep freeze damage but usually wouldn't totally die off.
Mobile and especially New Orleans are a bit warmer being right near water and further south and though they cycle through cold and warm temperatures, they're less likely to have temperatures below 20-25F most years. Moderate frosts intermittently 2-3 weeks a year with highs between 45-75F still supports some subtropical gardening, a variety of palms, and is overall pleasant enough in the day to go outside.
I'm surprised then that there are thousands of citrus and orange trees, and people growing edible bananas around there given temps in the upper teens every year. What years did you live there? Supposedly Charleston is 9a, and Beaufort, HHI, etc 9a. Maybe the airport is 8b. Many palms would not survive 8b every year, and I've seen pics of Phoenix palms, etc in Charleston. The inland South though is the real "flawed" subtropical climate if you ask me given the latitude and avg temps and extreme winter lows.
Citrus, on the other hand, does well here. A recent U.S. Department of Agriculture survey concluded there were more than 3,000 citrus trees growing in Charleston County.
“I have about eight citrus trees at home — oranges, grapefruit and tangerines,” Woolsey says. Kathy Woolsey, horticulturist at Cypress Gardens, grows several orange and grapefruit trees in her backyard and says the caterpillar of the giant swallowtail butterfly is the only pest that she deals with.
The only pest for oranges is the caterpillar of the giant swallowtail butterfly, the biggest in North America, she says. The butterflies, which are as big as a hand, come from Florida each year in midsummer.
“I hardly have to do a thing to the citrus trees,” Woolsey. “They don’t have to be pruned. They don’t have to be sprayed.”
Last year, her grapefruit were hanging to the ground from a 10-foot tall tree.
I'm surprised then that there are thousands of citrus and orange trees, and people growing edible bananas around there given temps in the upper teens every year. What years did you live there? Supposedly Charleston is 9a, and Beaufort, HHI, etc 9a. Maybe the airport is 8b. Many palms would not survive 8b every year, and I've seen pics of Phoenix palms, etc in Charleston. The inland South though is the real "flawed" subtropical climate if you ask me given the latitude and avg temps and extreme winter lows.
Charleston is according to the USDA zone maps 8b though I have seen a few newer ones claim 9a. I still follow their weather out of interest and visit frequently being I live close and have friends in the area. The record low last year was in the upper teens, and the year before that the upper teens downtown. I lived there from 2007-2011. Some years the lows would bottom out in the low 20s, some in the high teens. It's possible if you add up the lowest temperatures every year and take an average you might get 20F, but don't think for a second you don't have at least a week of deep freezes below 24F, often with accompaining high temperatures of 30-35F. I lived in downtown Charleston as well, which is the warmest area of the state barring perhaps Hilton Head or Beaufort.
As for palms 95% of the palms in Charleston are palmettos which do fine down to 10-15 degrees without damage. There's some (smaller) pindo palms which are hardy down to around 15F and a couple of washingtonia and a few Canary Island date palms which are hardy damage-free down to around 20F. The latter two while not completely dying are often totally browned out from February-May after a couple of good deep freezes. These two are stretches and don't really do "well."
I've seen a few orange and other citrus trees in immediate coastal Charleston area. They're rare and only found in peoples gardens and I wouldn't be surprised if many people wrap them up in the winter and/or replant them every 10 years when they're outright killed. Hardy varieties can survive damage free down to 20F or so and can probably survive most years with just some minor frost burn. I believe farmers tried growing Oranges into GA and SC and had the entire tree groves obliterated in the late 1800s and gave up completely. After the 1985 freeze came they stopped growing oranges commercially in northern Florida as well.
There is a hardy banana species that grows down to USDA 7b and is even found in Raleigh. Heck you might be able to wrap them up in the winter and grow them in Philly. It doesn't mean they're "subtropical" though really.
Last edited by njbiodude; 06-11-2015 at 01:21 AM..
You do realize that these southerly wind flows are just as anomalous as those strong frontal passages right? You could say just as easily that in its "natural climatic state" (whatever that means) it would have constant arctic flows, which is absolutely ridiculous to say.
In the natural state of New England's climate arctic airflows don't happen as the permanent Bermuda high keeps the airflow south or southwesterly.
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