Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Weather
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Which one is more subtropical?
North Carolina 14 51.85%
North Island NZ 10 37.04%
Both in their way 4 14.81%
None 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-05-2024, 07:27 PM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
142 posts, read 33,105 times
Reputation: 24

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
There is no agreed upon definition of subtropical ecology, but both places are examples of subtropical ecology imo.

In simple terms, one place can grow more, while the other place can grow bigger and quicker. But bigger and quicker doesn't mean NZ can't grow sugarcane as some posters would foolishly claim., As an example ,my own south island plant reach 13-14 ft high with 5-6 ft long canes. about 30 canes, and it passed the taste test. So certain posters shouldn't get too carried away deciding cool climate means sugarcane can't grow ... this is why why i's important to understand that the vegetation reflects the climate, not the climate reflects the vegetation.
Well the fact that NC is subtropical both ecologically and in climate classification is a win win.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-05-2024, 07:29 PM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
142 posts, read 33,105 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
There is no agreed upon definition of subtropical ecology, but both places are examples of subtropical ecology imo.

In simple terms, one place can grow more, while the other place can grow bigger and quicker. But bigger and quicker doesn't mean NZ can't grow sugarcane as some posters would foolishly claim., As an example ,my own south island plant reach 13-14 ft high with 5-6 ft long canes. about 30 canes, and it passed the taste test. So certain posters shouldn't get too carried away deciding cool climate means sugarcane can't grow ... this is why why i's important to understand that the vegetation reflects the climate, not the climate reflects the vegetation.
Also many oceanic climates are like if subtropical ecologically, that characteristic along with cool summers already supports it’s oceanic climate. I see oceanic as the twin of subtropical without strong summer heat.

Also it is true that climate reflects vegetation, also people have to remember than climate classification is broad, makes sense, but it doesn’t really indicate what can grow or not.

Last edited by Climatepolice48; 04-05-2024 at 08:17 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2024, 08:03 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
383 posts, read 95,347 times
Reputation: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Climatepolice48 View Post
Also many oceanic climates are like if subtropical ecologically, that characteristic along with cool summers already supports it’s oceanic climate. I see oceanic as the twin of subtropical without strong summer heat.
Many oceanic climates just have a mild continental climate ecology, more typical of D climates, and where dormancy is a key feature. They are very different to the warmer oceanic climates, ecologically, which are more typical of C climates ecologies

Last edited by sandshark; 04-05-2024 at 08:16 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2024, 08:30 PM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
142 posts, read 33,105 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
Many oceanic climates just have a mild continental climate ecology, more typical of D climates, and where dormancy is a key feature. They are very different to the warmer oceanic climates, ecologically, which are more typical of C climates ecologies
All oceanic climates are C, but I get the point, the ones that are nearer to continental climates resemble D. Also in winter NZ leans more towards tropical than continental, while a place lets say Paris leans more towards continental but both oceanic. These leanings are obvious, the closer to continental more dormancy and colder winters. I like how subtropical-temperate-3 puts it, like pre-tropical and pre-continental. The ones with tropical leanings are pre-tropical and the ones toward continental pre-continental. In that case North Island NZ is pre-tropical oceanic so it can grow tropical flora easily, while England pre-continental oceanic so more dormancy vegetation. One end or an other of a climate type is very different from the other. Auckland and Berlin are too different, specially winter. Now with Cfa Tampa and NYC are way different too in winter, but take up same climate type. Going with continental climates, compare Chicago an early continental to lets say Fairbanks Alaska which is subarctic bordeline, too too different. Infact Chicago acts almost like Cfa compared to the nearly polar Fairbanks. Well to be more specific in type Lansing, Michigan is Dfa and Dfb borderline while Fairbanks Dfb and Dfc borderline, both share Dfb, and they are complete different worlds snd ecologically different too. Lansing is in the temperate and continental ecologically while Fairbanks is boreal ecologically, way different. Climate classification is broad but it doesn’t define climate, and vegetation will not conclude climate type of classification but rather local climate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2024, 08:45 PM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
142 posts, read 33,105 times
Reputation: 24
Btw the ecology of Auckland is actually not too typical to C, ecologically it might be slightly warmer. Remember C climates are broad, they are called the temperate climates which are divided line this, Cfa, Cwa, Csa are hot summer ones, what in classification is subtropical, then you know, Cfb, Csb, Cwb which are oceanic/subtropical highlands, and subpolat oceanics/cold subtropical highlands Cfc, Csc, and Cwc. They are 9 in total and within each of the 9 there are differences. Auckland is one the warmer side of it’s category Cfb, so it is basically warm for a typical C.

The middle zone of C is Csb, Cfb, and Cwb, so Cfb is like a typical C, Northern NZ is a warm part of it’s C so since it’s not middle but warmer it is a warm C. Ecologically Auckland meets C climates very well but warmer side, a city lets say like Berlin obviously the colder and not best example of C either. So a good C example for the Cfb right now should be something colder in winter than north Island but warmer than Berlin to be more typical.

Ecology and climate classification don’t really match up but it can relate in some points. Of course lets say the -3°C isotherm for frozen ground or snowpack to continental will affect ecology notably, and the 18°C for tropical would certainly do too and would lead to a warm year round climate with no dormancy, allowing for many species to grow and many different animals to live. The 10°C of warmest month to divide to polar will certainly lead to climates with literally barely vegetation and less animals. So of course they can relate but to completely, so saying that a Auckland is more ecologically like a C climate than London doesn’t make much sense since they are both C climates and ecology is not what conpletely defines C climates. Well I proved that Auckland is not more typical to C either, a more middle climatically place will resemble C climates better in any aspect. A real C climate has dormancy, maybe not as much as areas lets say like Berlin or so little like Auckland but rather something in between I would say.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2024, 09:32 PM
 
37 posts, read 5,581 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
The north island has subtropical plantation horticulture
No, it does not. It was not settled for this reason. It is not a productive region for any subtropical crops for a reason. Heat-needing crops, like corn and soy, also cannot grow there.

Quote:
it gets tropical storms (moderated)
No, it does not.

Quote:
reptiles, lizards
Uh, no, not really. Its reptile diversity is extremely low and it has no snakes.

Quote:
subtropical soils, subtropical conifers
No, it does not.

Quote:
and coastal maritime jungle
It has warm temperate forest, nowhere on the NI is subtropical moist forest under Holdridge, like parts of NC are.

Quote:
North carolina is obviously a much warmer climate, but it is still more evolved towards cold season ecological slowdown, than the north island is.

You photo looks like an everyday scene even where I am in the south island. It could even be a winter scene.
North Carolina’s environment is evolved for warmth, as it has subtropical species and evergreen forest. It is not evolved for winter cold. Minnesota is.

And that picture is not of a deciduous forest, it’s of an evergreen forest. That could be a winter scene in coastal North Carolina. That forest is broadleaf evergreen, not deciduous.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2024, 09:41 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
383 posts, read 95,347 times
Reputation: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
No, it does not. It was not settled for this reason. It is not a productive region for any subtropical crops for a reason. Heat-needing crops, like corn and soy, also cannot grow there.



No, it does not.



Uh, no, not really. Its reptile diversity is extremely low and it has no snakes.



No, it does not.



It has warm temperate forest, nowhere on the NI is subtropical moist forest under Holdridge, like parts of NC are.



North Carolina’s environment is evolved for warmth, as it has subtropical species and evergreen forest. It is not evolved for winter cold. Minnesota is.

And that picture is not of a deciduous forest, it’s of an evergreen forest. That could be a winter scene in coastal North Carolina. That forest is broadleaf evergreen, not deciduous.
Corn and soybeans both grow in NZ. Corn commercially, but soy beans only a little bit, and biggest soy production is actually in the south island.

NZ does get storms directly out of the tropics, so moderated tropical storms.

Reptile diversity and snakes are related to geological isolation. Snakes can live in cold climates.

The top of the north island has soils classified as subtropical, and the country has subtropical conifers.

Holdridge ignores dormancy and year round growth, It has a disconnect between climate and ecology, relying on purely numerical thresholds.

Compared to nz, north carolina is very much adapted for winter cold. No point lecturing me about broadleaf evergreens, I'm much more familiar with them than you are.

Sugar cane is so easy to grow. Do you have any where you are jamesja?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2024, 11:06 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
383 posts, read 95,347 times
Reputation: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Climatepolice48 View Post
Btw the ecology of Auckland is actually not too typical to C, ecologically it might be slightly warmer. Remember C climates are broad, they are called the temperate climates which are divided line this, Cfa, Cwa, Csa are hot summer ones, what in classification is subtropical, then you know, Cfb, Csb, Cwb which are oceanic/subtropical highlands, and subpolat oceanics/cold subtropical highlands Cfc, Csc, and Cwc. They are 9 in total and within each of the 9 there are differences. Auckland is one the warmer side of it’s category Cfb, so it is basically warm for a typical C.

The middle zone of C is Csb, Cfb, and Cwb, so Cfb is like a typical C, Northern NZ is a warm part of it’s C so since it’s not middle but warmer it is a warm C. Ecologically Auckland meets C climates very well but warmer side, a city lets say like Berlin obviously the colder and not best example of C either. So a good C example for the Cfb right now should be something colder in winter than north Island but warmer than Berlin to be more typical.

Ecology and climate classification don’t really match up but it can relate in some points. Of course lets say the -3°C isotherm for frozen ground or snowpack to continental will affect ecology notably, and the 18°C for tropical would certainly do too and would lead to a warm year round climate with no dormancy, allowing for many species to grow and many different animals to live. The 10°C of warmest month to divide to polar will certainly lead to climates with literally barely vegetation and less animals. So of course they can relate but to completely, so saying that a Auckland is more ecologically like a C climate than London doesn’t make much sense since they are both C climates and ecology is not what conpletely defines C climates. Well I proved that Auckland is not more typical to C either, a more middle climatically place will resemble C climates better in any aspect. A real C climate has dormancy, maybe not as much as areas lets say like Berlin or so little like Auckland but rather something in between I would say.
The last poster I replied to, demonstrates an unexpected pitfall of classification.a dumbing down effect, in which the reader allows themselves into a one size fits all mindset, and the associated knowledge gap that stems from such thinking.

I remember a poster saying that peaches couldn’t grow in nz because it was oceanic , and at the particular time, I was picking about one ton a day of export peaches. Now it's corn, while fields of corn are just a totally unremarkable sight in nz.

Last edited by sandshark; 04-05-2024 at 11:20 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2024, 06:10 AM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
142 posts, read 33,105 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
The last poster I replied to, demonstrates an unexpected pitfall of classification.a dumbing down effect, in which the reader allows themselves into a one size fits all mindset, and the associated knowledge gap that stems from such thinking.

I remember a poster saying that peaches couldn’t grow in nz because it was oceanic , and at the particular time, I was picking about one ton a day of export peaches. Now it's corn, while fields of corn are just a totally unremarkable sight in nz.
I certainly think oceanic climates can grow lots of things, I don’t understand what is even the point of those posters. I don’t know why they think oceanic climates can’t grow corn, well for my own experience they do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2024, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Augusta, Ga
397 posts, read 255,156 times
Reputation: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
Compared to nz, north carolina is very much adapted for winter cold. No point lecturing me about broadleaf evergreens, I'm much more familiar with them than you are.
This is such bs, I've explored your area in New Zealand on google maps and it does have winter dormancy(deciduous trees, browned grass and all), you're just straight up lying your butt off.

Your AVERAGE WINTER LOWS are barely above freezing, even a place like Wilmington, NC has higher average lows, and it's not THAT different in hardiness either.

Having average winter lows around freezing guarantees winter dormancy, even Orlando, FL has noticeable winter dormancy oh but chilly Motueka is not "cold adapted", who the heck are you trying to fool.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Weather

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top