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View Poll Results: Which one is more subtropical?
North Carolina 14 51.85%
North Island NZ 10 37.04%
Both in their way 4 14.81%
None 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-07-2024, 04:49 AM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
405 posts, read 82,267 times
Reputation: 53

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
Classification is irrelevant. The ecology is the ecology, and subtropical is far better to describe the non linear progressions of ecosystems related to cold>>>hot.
Then there should not be any terms in climate classification because that would apply also to all the climate types. Then there not be any climate classification at all according to what you are saying here, or maybe we should makes millions of climates. Lets say yeah NZ has no dormancy and Florida still has some, that makes them ecologically different but are really going to say that NZ is more subtropical while Florida is almost entirely and the Southern part of that state is tropical? Each place has it’s own ecology, plants it can grow, and dormancy periods pronounced differently, we can’t simply say a place is certain climate when it is not. Ecologically you can keep saying that NZ is more subtropical and everything, but it is not, the only thing it has in common with subtropical climates and actually the warm ones it’s what it can grow, after that it has nothing subtropical. Back to climate classification, oceanic places with such mild winters as NZ will surely grow all this vegetation, but there is still a difference that doesn’t make the cut for subtropical.
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Old 04-07-2024, 12:45 PM
 
37 posts, read 6,168 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Can't think of username View Post
Thank you! This is exactly the reason why the "the less cold season adaptation, the more subtropical an environment" is nonsense: although I have replaced subtropical in favor of the much more appropriate Cfa term, and do classification with weather mechanisms instead of environment, I can't not point out the nonsense here.

Less cold season adaptation dictating an environment is "more subtropical" means the environments of places like Atlanta, Charleston, Dallas, Tallahassee (aka all good quintessential Cfa examples, or subtropical in the context of the rabbit hole I'm going down to prove this point) are less so than TROPICAL South Florida.

I hope this makes the point clear to sandshark of why these kinds of arguments are ridiculous and unjustifiable in their use, if it does not then I'm done with this discussion.
Yes. But also, too many on this board have a bias that includes not paying attention to the USA’s ecology. I don’t know how many times I need to explain the basics. We’re arguing about the presence of northerly ecological traits, and outright ignoring North Carolina’s subtropical ecology why? Everyone should know it has plenty of subtropical and tropical plant and animal species.

New Zealand, in comparison, is an anomalous, heavily moderated island climate, and that’s really the only reason parts of the North Island fringe into subtropical territory. It is not archetypically subtropical like North Carolina, Virginia, or even DC is.

These people are just hijacking the thread to rationalize New Zealand being subtropical by being utterly dishonest, at this point, about what they can grow, to what extent, and the reality of their native ecology, which they try to avoid as much as possible. New Zealand can grow a broad diversity of plants that thrive in oceanic/mediterranean-modified areas, that receive westerlies. It effectively can’t grow a lot of heat-needing subtropicals, let alone tropicals (disregarding sandshark’s/Joe90’s attempts to say he’s seen every plant species growing and thriving in New Zealand - the fact that anyone takes him seriously at this point is shocking).
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Old 04-07-2024, 01:08 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
386 posts, read 96,420 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropical-is-temperate3 View Post
Then there should not be any terms in climate classification because that would apply also to all the climate types. Then there not be any climate classification at all according to what you are saying here, or maybe we should makes millions of climates. Lets say yeah NZ has no dormancy and Florida still has some, that makes them ecologically different but are really going to say that NZ is more subtropical while Florida is almost entirely and the Southern part of that state is tropical? Each place has it’s own ecology, plants it can grow, and dormancy periods pronounced differently, we can’t simply say a place is certain climate when it is not. Ecologically you can keep saying that NZ is more subtropical and everything, but it is not, the only thing it has in common with subtropical climates and actually the warm ones it’s what it can grow, after that it has nothing subtropical. Back to climate classification, oceanic places with such mild winters as NZ will surely grow all this vegetation, but there is still a difference that doesn’t make the cut for subtropical.
There are millions of climates, and classifying them into basic groups helps provide an understanding of how the sun's energy impacts every part of the globe.

You are still confusing classification with climate. Florida and nz have their respective ecology's because of their climates, not their classification.

The presence of a few deciduous species in florida has to be measured against the ecosystem in it's entirety. Subtropicality of ecosystems is a sliding scale, not a human devised system with rigid boundaries and full of contradictions.
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Old 04-07-2024, 01:32 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
386 posts, read 96,420 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
Yes. But also, too many on this board have a bias that includes not paying attention to the USA’s ecology. I don’t know how many times I need to explain the basics. We’re arguing about the presence of northerly ecological traits, and outright ignoring North Carolina’s subtropical ecology why? Everyone should know it has plenty of subtropical and tropical plant and animal species.

New Zealand, in comparison, is an anomalous, heavily moderated island climate, and that’s really the only reason parts of the North Island fringe into subtropical territory. It is not archetypically subtropical like North Carolina, Virginia, or even DC is.

These people are just hijacking the thread to rationalize New Zealand being subtropical by being utterly dishonest, at this point, about what they can grow, to what extent, and the reality of their native ecology, which they try to avoid as much as possible. New Zealand can grow a broad diversity of plants that thrive in oceanic/mediterranean-modified areas, that receive westerlies. It effectively can’t grow a lot of heat-needing subtropicals, let alone tropicals (disregarding sandshark’s/Joe90’s attempts to say he’s seen every plant species growing and thriving in New Zealand - the fact that anyone takes him seriously at this point is shocking).
I don't actually see any part of nz as subtropical, it's all oceanic to me.

The ecosystem is what it is though, one that hasn't evolved dormancy, and which consequently allows a much greater range of plants to grow in, than north carolina.

I've only mentioned plants that you said wouldn't grow here, like albizia (that one was silly to the point of absurdity) sugar cane, soy beans etc, which do grow here. If a plant won't survive a winter, then summer heat is irrelevant.
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Old 04-07-2024, 03:22 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
405 posts, read 82,267 times
Reputation: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
There are millions of climates, and classifying them into basic groups helps provide an understanding of how the sun's energy impacts every part of the globe.

You are still confusing classification with climate. Florida and nz have their respective ecology's because of their climates, not their classification.

The presence of a few deciduous species in florida has to be measured against the ecosystem in it's entirety. Subtropicality of ecosystems is a sliding scale, not a human devised system with rigid boundaries and full of contradictions.
Not confusing them but rather understanding the climate of classification within actual climate, like for example a place classified as oceanic that keeps NZ characteristics I would see them as warmer winter ones so I would say warm oceanic there. NZ will differ in climate with London but in classification both are oceanic so I just use classification to use a simple climate but give specific characteristics of the specific region.
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Old 04-07-2024, 03:36 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
386 posts, read 96,420 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropical-is-temperate3 View Post
Not confusing them but rather understanding the climate of classification within actual climate, like for example a place classified as oceanic that keeps NZ characteristics I would see them as warmer winter ones so I would say warm oceanic there. NZ will differ in climate with London but in classification both are oceanic so I just use classification to use a simple climate but give specific characteristics of the specific region.
Yes, but some posters are blinded to the reality of the physical world, because they allow their understanding of oceanic ( for example) classification to dominate their thinking.


Think of the poster who foolishly claimed albizia couldn't grow in nz because it " lacked summer heat" Classification for such people goes from being a tool for providing a basic understanding, to an absolute that lessens their understanding.
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Old 04-07-2024, 04:04 PM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
142 posts, read 33,343 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
Yes, but some posters are blinded to the reality of the physical world, because they allow their understanding of oceanic ( for example) classification to dominate their thinking.


Think of the poster who foolishly claimed albizia couldn't grow in nz because it " lacked summer heat" Classification for such people goes from being a tool for providing a basic understanding, to an absolute that lessens their understanding.
Albizzia is being grown in Cape Cod MA which is oceanic short of humid subtropical also in summer and it is close to cobtinental!!! So of course it is ridiculous. So if Albizzia grows in Cape Cod NZ should too, and with way milder winters it is not bad.
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Old 04-07-2024, 04:22 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
386 posts, read 96,420 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Climatepolice48 View Post
Albizzia is being grown in Cape Cod MA which is oceanic short of humid subtropical also in summer and it is close to cobtinental!!! So of course it is ridiculous. So if Albizzia grows in Cape Cod NZ should too, and with way milder winters it is not bad.
Albizia are just a standard garden tree in nz, and I firewood a few every year that pop up around the property.

It does highlight the pitfall of rigid thinking in relation to climate zones.
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Old 04-07-2024, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
5,727 posts, read 3,506,899 times
Reputation: 2643
Not surprised to hear people in the US Southeast complaining about dormancy: that's what gives the region its continental vibe.

I am surprised to hear people in Central Florida doing so however. Brisbane has similar winter temperatures and I can tell you there is exactly zero dormancy there during winter.

I'll be in NZ this June so will be able to report first-hand on the dormancy situation. Last time I was there it was also June (late June to be precise) and, whilst there was more dormancy than Brisbane, it certainly wasn't the dominant characteristic of the environment.
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Old 04-07-2024, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
201 posts, read 55,496 times
Reputation: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
Not surprised to hear people in the US Southeast complaining about dormancy: that's what gives the region its continental vibe.

I am surprised to hear people in Central Florida doing so however. Brisbane has similar winter temperatures and I can tell you there is exactly zero dormancy there during winter.

I'll be in NZ this June so will be able to report first-hand on the dormancy situation. Last time I was there it was also June (late June to be precise) and, whilst there was more dormancy than Brisbane, it certainly wasn't the dominant characteristic of the environment.
Depends on where you are in Auckland to how many deciduous trees you see. Some streets are lined with flowering cherry and some parks have a lot of the exotic deciduous plantings.

Sub tropical Jacaranda is the only deciduous tree in my garden. Jacaranda is also popular in Brisbane. The leaf drop on my Jacaranda is very slow through Winter while in Brisbane there may not be a full leaf drop? I should add we have not had a frost at my place in 3 years.
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