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View Poll Results: Which one is more subtropical
Wellington, NZ 3 11.54%
Atlanta, GA 21 80.77%
Both in their way 2 7.69%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-25-2024, 06:56 PM
 
52 posts, read 11,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropical-is-temperate3 View Post
The Caribbean is not subtropical but tropical
And that is not the point. The Caribbean hosts a lot of the subtropical flora and fauna that the southern USA also has.

Quote:
Atlanta has the temperate mixed forests(both southern coniferous and deciduous) so it obviously has characteristics from the northern temperate zone, but not like Denmark at all
Didn't I say this? I said that Atlanta's biota is a product of various northern temperate species adapted to a subtropical climate + some endemic American elements, both northern temperate and subtropical + some elements seen in Florida and the Caribbean, with a few South American incursions.

The southern USA shares much of its flora and fauna - from palms to pines to animals like anoles - with the Caribbean. It's the Caribbean/Northern temperate crossover that makes the US south ecologically "sub"tropical. Once you get down to around the "Deep South, and the South Atlantic coastal plain, this northern temperate influence is much scanter. On the Florida peninsula, it's almost obsolete. Northern temperate species are pluralistic as canopy vegetation starting around the Atlanta region, a bit past the Piedmont zone of the South, but there's still a pluralistic subtropical "laurel" element (rhododendron, mountain laurel, canebrake, holly, caroliniana) in the understory, in addition to subtropical pine dominance and other stuff that makes it clearly subtropical, and not at all like Denmark, in its ecology.
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Old 04-25-2024, 07:58 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
And that is not the point. The Caribbean hosts a lot of the subtropical flora and fauna that the southern USA also has.



Didn't I say this? I said that Atlanta's biota is a product of various northern temperate species adapted to a subtropical climate + some endemic American elements, both northern temperate and subtropical + some elements seen in Florida and the Caribbean, with a few South American incursions.

The southern USA shares much of its flora and fauna - from palms to pines to animals like anoles - with the Caribbean. It's the Caribbean/Northern temperate crossover that makes the US south ecologically "sub"tropical. Once you get down to around the "Deep South, and the South Atlantic coastal plain, this northern temperate influence is much scanter. On the Florida peninsula, it's almost obsolete. Northern temperate species are pluralistic as canopy vegetation starting around the Atlanta region, a bit past the Piedmont zone of the South, but there's still a pluralistic subtropical "laurel" element (rhododendron, mountain laurel, canebrake, holly, caroliniana) in the understory, in addition to subtropical pine dominance and other stuff that makes it clearly subtropical, and not at all like Denmark, in its ecology.
Caribbean is tropical, nothing subtropical about it. The flora therefore is tropical, some plants are shared with some subtropical locations but not tropical. The native flora of Atlanta is not the sane as the Caribbean, I hope this helps to explain that tropical and subtropical is not the same. I live in Central FL, the native vegetation still has temperate characteristics, in the temperate forest biome close entering the tropical rainforest biome and tropical grassland of southern FL. In Atlanta vegetation is not very similar to Caribbean that’s just inaccurate. To see the tropical flora start to mix in you have to reach southern Georgia and to start to see more tropical you have to come here. In the southern part of Central Florida tropical climates start, so basically it gets tropical here you don’t need to proclaim subtropical, Atlanta is subtropical, this place barely is.
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Old 04-27-2024, 11:05 AM
 
52 posts, read 11,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropical-is-temperate3 View Post
Caribbean is tropical, nothing subtropical about it. The flora therefore is tropical, some plants are shared with some subtropical locations but not tropical.
Why can’t you get it though your head that I’m not making a statement on the climate or environment of the Caribbean. Some species that are shared between the Caribbean and the U.S. South would be characterized as “subtropical” for their range. It is objectively true that they share species.

Quote:
The native flora of Atlanta is not the sane as the Caribbean, I hope this helps to explain that tropical and subtropical is not the same.
I’m not sure how you can miss the point THIS WILDLY. Please READ. Atlanta shares some species with the Caribbean, and a great deal of species with the Northern Temperate zone, with some of those Northern Temperate species being adapted to a hotter subtropical climate. This is what characterizes Atlanta’s subtropical biome. The subtropical US, Caribbean, and sometimes Mesoamerican species become far more prominent just a bit outside of (south/east) of Atlanta.

Quote:
I live in Central FL, the native vegetation still has temperate characteristics
The native vegetation of Central FL BARELY has temperate characteristics and is most characterized by its tropicality. It is an “evergreen climate”.

Quote:
in the temperate forest biome close entering the tropical rainforest biome and tropical grassland of southern FL
Central Florida is in the “Subtropical moist forest” biome, not the temperate one.

Quote:
In Atlanta vegetation is not very similar to Caribbean that’s just inaccurate. To see the tropical flora start to mix in you have to reach southern Georgia and to start to see more tropical you have to come here. In the southern part of Central Florida tropical climates start, so basically it gets tropical here you don’t need to proclaim subtropical, Atlanta is subtropical, this place barely is.
The Atlanta region has some endemic subtropical species, shares some species with the Caribbean, and also shares a lot of species with the Temperate US, making it subtropical. Again. Get that through your head.

Last edited by jamesja; 04-27-2024 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 04-27-2024, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
217 posts, read 65,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post


The Atlanta region has some endemic subtropical species, shares some species with the Caribbean, and also shares a lot of species with the Temperate US, making it subtropical. Again. Get that through your head.
I notice Atlanta Winter landscape is dominated by deciduous trees.
Atlanta averages 36 nights a year with a temperature minimum at or below freezing.
Wellington Kelburn, averages 10.5 ground frosts but no air frost.
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Old 04-27-2024, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Augusta, Ga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikau Palm View Post
I notice Atlanta Winter landscape is dominated by deciduous trees.
Atlanta averages 36 nights a year with a temperature minimum at or below freezing.
Wellington Kelburn, averages 10.5 ground frosts but no air frost.
That's more to do with it's elevated location in Georgia, it's soil composition, and the fact that nobody in Atlanta has the sense to plant live oaks, Atlanta could easily look like these winter pics from Aiken, SC.
Attached Thumbnails
What city is more subtropical Wellington, NZ or Atlanta, GA?-hopelands-gardens-aiken-sc.jpg   What city is more subtropical Wellington, NZ or Atlanta, GA?-well-known-south-boundary-st.-aiken  
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Old 04-27-2024, 11:17 PM
 
52 posts, read 11,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikau Palm View Post
I notice Atlanta Winter landscape is dominated by deciduous trees.
Atlanta averages 36 nights a year with a temperature minimum at or below freezing.
Wellington Kelburn, averages 10.5 ground frosts but no air frost.
What does this add to the discussion?

The Atlanta deciduous canopy doesn't peak until late November-early December, and it can start budding as early as February in many years. Atlanta goes "leaf out" by mid to late April every year, sometimes earlier, as much as a month and a half before my area does. That's a pretty big sign Atlanta is subtropical. As someone from Chicago with family in Atlanta, this is a massive contrast to what we experience in the North. I keep telling you that deciduous elements do not decide whether a biome is subtropical or not. And if you want to understand Atlanta's biome, read the rest of my post, I don't know why you ignored the explanation of Atlanta's flora.

Atlanta, also, has a heavy evergreen element in the city, ornamentally. There are plenty of palm trees, from needles to windmills to sabals, that are grown throughout the metro. Magnolias, Myrtles, and Hollies grow very tall and robust in Atlanta, and the surrounding metro is full of very lush stands of longleaf, slash, yellow, and loblolly pine, bamboo, mountain laurel, rhododendron maximum, liana vines, camphor laurel, banana trees (which fruit in the area many years), etc, Spanish moss starts to appear pretty much immediately outside of Atlanta.

Last edited by jamesja; 04-27-2024 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 04-28-2024, 01:31 PM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
170 posts, read 44,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
What does this add to the discussion?

The Atlanta deciduous canopy doesn't peak until late November-early December, and it can start budding as early as February in many years. Atlanta goes "leaf out" by mid to late April every year, sometimes earlier, as much as a month and a half before my area does. That's a pretty big sign Atlanta is subtropical. As someone from Chicago with family in Atlanta, this is a massive contrast to what we experience in the North. I keep telling you that deciduous elements do not decide whether a biome is subtropical or not. And if you want to understand Atlanta's biome, read the rest of my post, I don't know why you ignored the explanation of Atlanta's flora.

Atlanta, also, has a heavy evergreen element in the city, ornamentally. There are plenty of palm trees, from needles to windmills to sabals, that are grown throughout the metro. Magnolias, Myrtles, and Hollies grow very tall and robust in Atlanta, and the surrounding metro is full of very lush stands of longleaf, slash, yellow, and loblolly pine, bamboo, mountain laurel, rhododendron maximum, liana vines, camphor laurel, banana trees (which fruit in the area many years), etc, Spanish moss starts to appear pretty much immediately outside of Atlanta.
Something intresting, under the -3°C isotherm of Köppen Chicago is hot summer continental Dfa, but due to being average coldest month 26.2°F , it is borderline to Cfa humid subtropical since 26.6°F is -3°F. Only 0.4°F average of coldest month of bordering humid subtropical! Atlanta is subtropical no question. And In Atlanta it’s not late November the deciduous canopy peak, it’s Mid November most often, but yeah in late November is still on peak, but early December no trees get emptier there and sometimes just get winterlike. Yep sone years do bud up in February, but early March is most common. And don’t forget invasive species Albizzia Julibrissin. Spanish moss immediately south of Atlanta? Well not exactly but we can say that. Well Sabal minor start to be native just south of it, and saw palmetto starts to appear too. If Chicago is borderline to subtropical somehow then Atlanta is a pure subtropical paradise. I don’t understand why people think of Orlando or something like that as a main example of subtropical when it is almost tropical, literally borderline! Atlanta is pretty much a typical subtropical, though I believe if you go 1° more southern it would be more.

Auburn, AL averages 45.5°F(7.5°C) in coldest month, exact middle of 18°C(64.4°F) and -3°C(26.6°F) of temperate boundaries to tropical and continental, so under system it is perfect. Also typical latitudes(though there are obviously many exceptions) is 25-40°N/S for humid subtropical, 32.5° would be the mid point, Auburn is 32.6°N. Auburn being 1° more southern than Atlanta makes it be closer to the palms native range. Auburn perfect subtropical for North America.
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Old 04-28-2024, 01:33 PM
 
Location: St. Pete Beach, FL
170 posts, read 44,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emman85 View Post
That's more to do with it's elevated location in Georgia, it's soil composition, and the fact that nobody in Atlanta has the sense to plant live oaks, Atlanta could easily look like these winter pics from Aiken, SC.
It is possible even in parts of KY and Southern Indiana in zone 7a(people have actually done it) If you check hardiness of live oaks they are hardy even in NYC possibly.
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Old 04-28-2024, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
217 posts, read 65,005 times
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For outdoor gardens it looks like Atlanta Winter will only allow for cold hardy subtropical planting.
I see the frost hardy banana variety grown in Atlanta gets frosted back to a stump in Winter.

Last edited by Nikau Palm; 04-28-2024 at 04:50 PM..
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Old 04-28-2024, 06:10 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikau Palm View Post
For outdoor gardens it looks like Atlanta Winter will only allow for cold hardy subtropical planting.
I see the frost hardy banana variety grown in Atlanta gets frosted back to a stump in Winter.
Well near Atlanta sabal minor starts to be native. You can grow hardy citrus, like 11 types I know. Atlanta can grow Sabal palmetto no problem. Saw palmetto is almost at native range. That banana is native to southern China and deciduous, it does same in Shanghai.
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