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View Poll Results: Which one is more subtropical
Wellington, NZ 3 11.54%
Atlanta, GA 21 80.77%
Both in their way 2 7.69%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-17-2024, 02:28 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
444 posts, read 127,336 times
Reputation: 271

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
Which is indicated by what is native to the region, not what is introduced and grown ornamentally. You ONLY attend to that, because it allows you to flaunt your gardening habit and cherry-pick stuff, and obfuscate the extent to which a given plant can grow fast, well, and regularly without much help in a given climate.

The end result of your thought process is this endless rationalizing about how the U.S. isn’t subtropical but Europe or New Zealand is. Delusional.
I only grow stuff that doesn't need help or attention, apart from water, because summer is typically drought here.

Speaking of what is native to a region. Pretty much anything native to London, will survive in NYC, while pretty much anything native to my region, won't survive in NYC.
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Old 04-17-2024, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
217 posts, read 65,005 times
Reputation: 151
NYC maybe coastal but there is a strong continental influence to the climate.
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:21 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
The vast majority of Oceanic climates in the world (mostly in Europe) don’t have a native environment more subtropical than NYC at all - in fact, they have environments less subtropical than NYC, which has much higher species diversity, taller, denser forest, warm-hot climate indicator species like Prickly Pear, Subtropical Pine (Longleaf, Yellow), Needle Palm, Mountain Laurel, and Maritime forest (as at the Sunken Forest on Long Island), the appearance of subtropical fish - all paint a more subtropical picture than the native environment of London or the UK. What London can grow, to any extent, is not indicative of London’s “environment”.

Yes, the Northern Temperate dominance is much more prominent in the borderline NYC region, and some of the species I named are more scant than others, that far north - but its native environment is still more tailored to warmth than London’s is, and saying otherwise is objectively false.
How is NYC borderline, under the 0°C isotherm? Well I don’t agree with the 0°C isotherm because it has no point but besides being freezing point, as average of a month it will not affect the snowpack or frozen ground affect that -3°C isotherm would. Therefore, NYC is near to continental but not really borderline.
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:24 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikau Palm View Post
NYC maybe coastal but there is a strong continental influence to the climate.
It is a few degrees short of actually being continental. It averages around 1°C coldest month, it is borderline under the 0°C to continental, and under the -3°C it has strong influence, so it is completely accurate what you say. Well at similar latitude inland, example Indianapolis is borderline under the -3°C isotherm, it is in a slightly lower latitude than NYC and with -3°C it passes but not the 0°C like NYC does, so being coastal it is in both.
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:32 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
Which is indicated by what is native to the region, not what is introduced and grown ornamentally. You ONLY attend to that, because it allows you to flaunt your gardening habit and cherry-pick stuff, and obfuscate the extent to which a given plant can grow fast, well, and regularly without much help in a given climate.

The end result of your thought process is this endless rationalizing about how the U.S. isn’t subtropical but Europe or New Zealand is. Delusional.
I don’t agree with taking Europe as a whole, Europe has subtropical climates in various places, ranging from Mediterranean Nice full of palm trees, European fan tree being native to the area, to the microclimates of humid-subtropical in parts of Central Europe up to 47 or 48°N!!! Most of Europe is oceanic, continental in Eastern Europe is normal, and humid subtropical inbetween is normal too. Southern Europe is Mediterranean for sure, and parts of the continent even feature semiarid climates. So go specific not Europe as a whole. And the competition of oceanic and subtropical will never end, lets just admit it both climates are similar except in summer points of temperatures, so this vegetation competition will never end, it’s pointless. Some oceanic climates will habe more biodiversity than some subtropical and visa versa. These arguments you and sandshark make have no point.
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:35 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
444 posts, read 127,336 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropical-is-temperate3 View Post
I don’t agree with taking Europe as a whole, Europe has subtropical climates in various places, ranging from Mediterranean Nice full of palm trees, European fan tree being native to the area, to the microclimates of humid-subtropical in parts of Central Europe up to 47 or 48°N!!! Most of Europe is oceanic, continental in Eastern Europe is normal, and humid subtropical inbetween is normal too. Southern Europe is Mediterranean for sure, and parts of the continent even feature semiarid climates. So go specific not Europe as a whole. And the competition of oceanic and subtropical will never end, lets just admit it both climates are similar except in summer points of temperatures, so this vegetation competition will never end, it’s pointless. Some oceanic climates will habe more biodiversity than some subtropical and visa versa. These arguments you and sandshark make have no point.
I believe my argument does - environment is dependent on climate, not classification.
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:39 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesja View Post
Which is indicated by what is native to the region, not what is introduced and grown ornamentally. You ONLY attend to that, because it allows you to flaunt your gardening habit and cherry-pick stuff, and obfuscate the extent to which a given plant can grow fast, well, and regularly without much help in a given climate.

The end result of your thought process is this endless rationalizing about how the U.S. isn’t subtropical but Europe or New Zealand is. Delusional.
Let me kill you with something, Cape Cod which is oceanic has Ilex opaca native, Ilex opacs is a native to humid subtropical climate in US. There it is, if a nearly continental climate has a native subtropical plant, NZ is like a tropical paradise to it. I agree it is throughly oceanic, but it is a paradise. Well, Jiouyuezao mandarin being grown in Long Island with minimal or no protection is a dream come true, so it looks like Long Island is starting to have its own paradise! Oceanic climates are oceanic, but are the twin of subtropical with cooler summers.
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:40 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
I believe my argument does - environment is dependent on climate, not classification.
I get it, climate classification describes broader climate, your environment the specific. I agree there. But here my argument goes too, Oceanic climates have similar privileges as subtropical, NZ has strong ones. NZ is like an oceanic version of here. What I mean is jamesja is exaggerating bit there, but I can finally understand what you mean. I see NZ as a very blessed oceanic climate, it has many tropical characteristics, having year round growing in many parts of the country is literally a tropical characteristic, that is why I call many parts of NZ pre-tropical oceanic, while I call NYC pre-continental humid-subtropical, I try here to describe climate without breaking classification, fitting in most mindsets, and having account environments aswell.
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:43 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
444 posts, read 127,336 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropical-is-temperate3 View Post
I get it, climate classification describes broader climate, your environment the specific. I agree there.
Yes, that's it in a nutshell ... maybe a macadamia nutshell, which grow easily around here. lol!
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Old 04-17-2024, 08:49 PM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
485 posts, read 113,083 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandshark View Post
Yes, that's it in a nutshell ... maybe a macadamia nutshell, which grow easily around here. lol!
And when jamesja sid Atlanta is not winter jacket weather, I really don’t get it. I was raised in the northern deep south of US most of my life, and guess what I used in winter, jackets!!! Well most of the time it was 4-13°C. Well anything below 18°C chills me down, but I don’t really feel heavy cold until 0°C, -2 or -3°C, or colder. It got days above 20°C, there I could go outside, even it shorts. Though I prefer 25°C ir more. Not to mentioned it got to 22°C in winter, that feels hot in the season so yep shorts.
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