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NYC warm in winter? To who, Minnesotans? I wouldn't call freezing 'warm', unless you're using a very subjective measure. NYC winter isn't even in the same ball-park as an Orlando winter.
Subjective measures was exactly my point, but I do consider NYC's Winters to be warm, as it is quite difficult to even get a low below 20 except on the coldest nights (even Nashville can do better than that). There's a near-complete absence of anything I'd call a cold snap, and there isn't persistent snowpack there, either. Furthermore, the precipitation type is rain most of the time, and the general rule with a snowstorm there is that in 4-7 days it will warm up and rain. Temperatures above 40 degrees are also quite common during the daytime, along with nights not much cooler than that, because of its low daily range. 50 degrees also seems to be more attainable than 15 degrees. Nights are not cold in that place most of the time during Winter, and nights are usually kind of warm in the early Winter; it's quite common to have nights above freezing during December, and it is not uncommon not to even have a freeze until the month of December (it occurred just this winter).
Shall I go on? These are the essential characteristics of New York City's winters, which even if they are not all that warm, are certainly not cold and not harsh, as it relates to Winter measures. This combined with it's hot and humid summers with very warm nights supports New York's subtropical classification. But that was not the original point. My original point was against emotion-based climate classification, such as "this place's winter is sooo cold, it can't be subtropical", whereas someone from a bona fide continental climate may similarly say "oh, that place gets so much warmth in winter, it can't be a true continental climate" (even if it's north of the persistent snowline, whereas NYC is not).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
I agree. I've never heard anyone where I live here or in NYC refer to their climate as subtropical. Maybe climatologists mention it (and wiki ), but no one on the street.
Well, people don't usually go around the street rolling off climate letter codes . And I bet if you went even to Jackson, Mississippi, the epitome of humid subtropical climates, there wouldn't be anyone on the street saying they live in a subtropical place.
Usually people will give a more specific description of their climate other than the zone it's in, such as the amount of heat in Summer, the range of the nights, how often and in what quantity they get snow, et cetera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMarbles
Specifically with subtropical, for most people the word invokes images of palm trees, practically non-existent winters and almost endless summers. However there is no reason to confuse our colloquial usage of the term with Koppen's definition.
I agree with the part about colloquial usage, but it still strikes me as odd. I believe that subtropical and tropical are two distinct areas but are often conflated. For instance, palm trees are by and large tropical plants, not subtropical, although they will grow in warmer parts. Endless summers and nonexistent winters are tropical characteristics as well, although again warmer parts of the subtropics can have winters that are practically not there at all. But the term subtropical scientifically denotes somewhere with a cool season below tropical limits, and with no persistent snowpack, which I would consider a barely-there winter. This again conflicts with colloquial usage about snow equaling winter when there's more to it than that, or at least different grades, which is captured in the Koeppen zones.
To end this rambling, the tropics and the near-tropical deep subtropics are what colloquially is thought of as subtropical, which strikes me as strange.
Calling NYC subtropical does not mean my image of subtropic is the same as tropics. NYC is close to a classic 4 season temperate climate. Obviously winters are milder than many places further north, but I don't think you need snow for it be winter, just near no plant growth and near freezing temperatures.
To me:
Tropics = Persistant warmth, hot or close to hot year around. The locals will find a day with highs in the mid 60s cold. Very little seasonal range in temperature. Frosts are almost nonexistent, and destructive to vegetation.One measure is the daily range is comparable to the annual range. Koppen's threshold of 18°C every month makes sense, to exclude places like Coastal California which are too cold to be consider tropical.
Subtropics = Warm to hot for much of the year but with a distinct cool season. Subtropical does not mean a hot place with lots of palm trees. My image of subtropics is spanish moss. The cool season is cool but not what would stereotypically be considered "winter". Severe frosts don't happen regularly, and hardy plants can keep growing most winters. For example, in the UK and Western Oregon, is common to find greenery in February, and much more so in California, all of which cannot be tropical. These are obviously oceanic places and don't really count as the subtropics, but if a subtropical place cannot match the winter warmth of these cool climates it doesn't deserve to be called subtropical. A place that gets snowstorms regularly should be disqualified from being subtropical. A subtropical place is cool but not cold.
The best definition for subtropics is based on plant growth; plants can grow most of the year, but frosts and coolness interfere for a bit.
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We're speaking different languages, Patricius. I come from a climate similar to LA, so NY's winters are harsh to me. Not sure where you're from but you're probably more used to freezing conditions.
We're speaking different languages, Patricius. I come from a climate similar to LA, so NY's winters are harsh to me. Not sure where you're from but you're probably more used to freezing conditions.
Just to be clear, I refer to "harsh" the way most people in most parts of North America would - with connotations of biting cold winds (well below freezing) and significant snowfall. That's a harsh winter as the phrase is currently used in my region. Most in the U.S. would consider places like Chicago and Minneapolis to have harsh Winters. I don't agree with that assessment myself and I'd say a genuine harsh winter is more like Winnipeg or Fairbanks. However, even using the common sense of the word as I have in my post your referenced, New York is definitely quite a step up in terms of mildness than Chicago and is not "harsh".
A lot of the dispute contained in this thread does come from language confusion and conflation, which I seek to minimize on every practical basis.
It looks like the debate is coming from two sides -- the one from maritime climates and the one from continental climates, where the maritime climate grades into the subtropical category by being warmer overall in the year (like "raising the average"), while the continental end grades into the subtropical category by making the summers not ncessarily much warmer but longer and the winters shorter and milder ("minimizing the winter").
It's kind of like arguing who's happier. Someone who is reasonably content and satisfied, but feels not exceptionally great, day afer day in their life but never exceptionally happy or sad. Versus a someone who has more variation in moods --incredibly euphoric for long periods of time, but who on some days on occasion, is totally depressed and down in the dumps for a short while but, can always get over it quickly. (Or reverse the analogy if you prefer cold/winter to stand for happiness).
Last edited by Stumbler.; 02-03-2012 at 09:13 AM..
Buenos Aires is a classic subtropical climate i think.
Cause climates like Miami, Iguazu, i feel they are tropical.
And places like new york, temperate, but not subtropical.
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), but no one on the street.
. And I bet if you went even to Jackson, Mississippi, the epitome of humid subtropical climates, there wouldn't be anyone on the street saying they live in a subtropical place.
