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I'd agree that it represents more an extension of the tropics in winter, but not in summer. And it seems only plant naturalisation that applies to cool loving plants, and not anything that needs heat. Why just ignore heat loving plants that can't grow in the UK? In the winter, having minimal frost and vegetation that is green, etc does exhibit similarities with the tropics, but I think it stops there. There are other climate factors besides just plant growth. And, I really don't see how a place like Scilly represents an extension of the tropics when there is never any true tropical warmth there, particularly in summer, and barely in winter.
I've been to places like the coast of Oregon in February. Same climate as Scilly, and though mild compared to Philly and very green, it didn't feel that warm. There is no time of year that Scilly feels tropical, unless you are talking highland tropical.
Philly and similar places kind of represent an extension of the Arctic in winter, and the Tropics in summer. From May thru September our climate feels tropical more so than you would ever feel in Scilly. I could claim that ocean water temperatures in the upper 70's, currently our surf temp stands at 78F, towering cumulus clouds just about every day, much higher dew points, etc represents more an extension of the tropics than the chilly waters and air around the UK. Those warm waters come directly from the tropics. In winter, the shift occurs and we get a taste of the Arctic, while Scilly then gets some mildness from those same waters.
And I'm not even sure plant growth fully supports what you are saying. What about heat needed for proper sub-tropical plant growth? I'll use an example of a subtropical species, Crepe Myrtle (Lagerstromia indica). Check out this website and see that it is almost impossible to get the thing to grow properly in the UK, let alone even flower: Crape Myrtle Tree (Lagerstromia indica) - UK growers? - Advice - Digital Spy Forums They grow large and beautiful around here with flowers from now till the end of summer.
This is a picture of one I took last weekend in coastal Delaware(it is higher than the roof of that house):
Crepe Myrtle might not be a good example. From what I can see, they grow in the south of England, just not particularly well, so they aren't excluded by the climate. You need examples of things that can't grow at all in the UK, but would in Philly. Out of the two places I would say the Scilly Isles would have a climate that could support more species. Crepe Myrtles grow well here, but can be variable in flowering.
I don't think a climate needs a a tropical season to be subtropical, just a longer growing season- that's what Trewartha was getting at. Warm (relatively)over a longer period.
Crepe Myrtle might not be a good example. From what I can see, they grow in the south of England, just not particularly well, so they aren't excluded by the climate. You need examples of things that can't grow at all in the UK, but would in Philly. Out of the two places I would say the Scilly Isles would have a climate that could support more species. Crepe Myrtles grow well here, but can be variable in flowering.
I don't think a climate needs a a tropical season to be subtropical, just a longer growing season- that's what Trewartha was getting at. Warm (relatively)over a longer period.
I would guess (?) that perhaps Trewartha did intend for the label of “subtropical” to mean climates that a least several months had weather conditions very similar to tropical climates (hot temps, strong sun angles, abundant moisture…etc). A good example might be subtropical climates like Brisbane or Orlando, they differ little in weather conditions from true tropical climates for a good portion of the year - it’s only the few months of a fleeting winter season that keep them from being considered tropical climates.
If not, it might not make much sense: It would be like saying a “subpolar climate” has little cold weather…
To be fair, the general "Cxx" climate group includes the oceanic climates and is broadly defined as temperate. The Cfa, Cwa, and Csa climates are what are typically referred to as subtropical. That said, Koeppen in his system pushed the Cfa zone rather than the subtropical label, if you know what I mean. The subtropical label has been twisted and maligned over the years into something that doesn't bear much of a resemblance to what's really going on.
In the orginal Koppen system (and map that this text shows), areas that are today strongly considered subtropical (say north Florida or much of the East Coast of Australia) that are Cfa are in the same group as southern Ohio. In North America, the Cfa zone went from places like Ohio or Rhode Island to north Florida. So that was the problem it seems. If Koppen wanted to differentiate these types of climate from each other (Ohio and north Florida for example), he did a really poor job it would seem.
I do agree however, that the subtropical label has been twisted and maligned over the years. Just because cities like NYC or Pusan have tropical like summers, they are not subtropical. The same can be said for attempting to paint high latitude oceanic climates (PNW, much of New Zealand, Western Europe…etc) as mild or subtropical because of fewer frosts (yet they have cool summers, low sun angles, and little "hot tropical weather") is very misleading and not what was intended
I would guess (?) that perhaps Trewartha did intend for the label of “subtropical” to mean climates that a least several months had weather conditions very similar to tropical climates (hot temps, strong sun angles, abundant moisture…etc). A good example might be subtropical climates like Brisbane or Orlando, they differ little in weather conditions from true tropical climates for a good portion of the year - it’s only the few months of a fleeting winter season that keep them from being considered tropical climates.
If not, it might not make much sense: It would be like saying a “subpolar climate” has little cold weather…
I don't think Trewartha was aiming at the warmer end of the subtropical scale. Brisbane and Orlando are well within his definition. I think he was trying to exclude places that are too cold- the PNW, the UK and much of Europe, parts of the US east coast (NYC) etc, in terms of growing season. It also identified some Oceanic climates as having a longer growing season -Northern Spain, much of NZ, coastal Victoria and parts of Tasmania.
In the orginal Koppen system (and map that this text shows), areas that are today strongly considered subtropical (say north Florida or much of the East Coast of Australia) that are Cfa are in the same group as southern Ohio. In North America, the Cfa zone went from places like Ohio or Rhode Island to north Florida. So that was the problem it seems. If Koppen wanted to differentiate these types of climate from each other (Ohio and north Florida for example), he did a really poor job it would seem.
I do agree however, that the subtropical label has been twisted and maligned over the years. Just because cities like NYC or Pusan have tropical like summers, they are not subtropical. The same can be said for attempting to paint high latitude oceanic climates (PNW, much of New Zealand, Western Europe…etc) as mild or subtropical because of fewer frosts (yet they have cool summers, low sun angles, and little "hot tropical weather") is very misleading and not what was intended
I don't think NZ would be considered high latitude in the same vein as as the PNW, or western Europe. The parts that do get near to those latitudes (say below 43" South) don't fit anyone's definition of subtropical any way.
I think Trewartha considered those places subtropical, not because they had fewer frosts (where I live would have more frosts than much of the PNW coast, and at only 41" S), but because of a longer growing season. An important distinction.
In the orginal Koppen system (and map that this text shows), areas that are today strongly considered subtropical (say north Florida or much of the East Coast of Australia) that are Cfa are in the same group as southern Ohio. In North America, the Cfa zone went from places like Ohio or Rhode Island to north Florida. So that was the problem it seems. If Koppen wanted to differentiate these types of climate from each other (Ohio and north Florida for example), he did a really poor job it would seem.
I do agree however, that the subtropical label has been twisted and maligned over the years. Just because cities like NYC or Pusan have tropical like summers, they are not subtropical. The same can be said for attempting to paint high latitude oceanic climates (PNW, much of New Zealand, Western Europe…etc) as mild or subtropical because of fewer frosts (yet they have cool summers, low sun angles, and little "hot tropical weather") is very misleading and not what was intended
I agree. No way is NYC subtropical or Philly. I was responding to Joe's post about a place being more an extension of the tropics based on plant growth. Part of what he says rings true, because my first time in SF I took note of large tropical looking plants everywhere.
I was just saying that our summers and the heat we get represent an extension of the tropics cause basically it is purely tropical to subtropical air we are enveloped in for months. It feels tropical here thru the summer. The sky looks tropical. The tstorms we get are probably much more intense and tropical in nature than anything in the UK or Scilly Isles. My point was why should just plant growth be more representative of an extension of the tropics, even when that plant growth comes at minimal warmth any time of the year. The warmth of the water from the tropics in winter is what gives Scilly the mild air, the same air we have all summer that they really don't have. And as far as a plant that is subtropical that thrives here and barely grows at all in the UK in my mind somewhat negates the fact that other cooler loving plants that are frost intolerant don't do well in our climate here compared to there. It is never really going to be settled though cause it seems rather a subjective for each person and what they consider more representative of the tropics or subtropics. I do get the gist of what Joe is saying and agree with it in part. To me this scene wouldn't look out of place in Florida in summer(Delaware this past weekend):
I agree. No way is NYC subtropical or Philly. I was responding to Joe's post about a place being more an extension of the tropics based on plant growth. Part of what he says rings true, because my first time in SF I took note of large tropical looking plants everywhere.
I was just saying that our summers and the heat we get represent an extension of the tropics cause basically it is purely tropical to subtropical air we are enveloped in for months. It feels tropical here thru the summer. The sky looks tropical. The tstorms we get are probably much more intense and tropical in nature than anything in the UK or Scilly Isles. My point was why should just plant growth be more representative of an extension of the tropics, even when that plant growth comes at minimal warmth any time of the year. The warmth of the water from the tropics in winter is what gives Scilly the mild air, the same air we have all summer that they really don't have. And as far as a plant that is subtropical that thrives here and barely grows at all in the UK in my mind somewhat negates the fact that other cooler loving plants that are frost intolerant don't do well in our climate here compared to there. It is never really going to be settled though cause it seems rather a subjective for each person and what they consider more representative of the tropics or subtropics. I do get the gist of what Joe is saying and agree with it in part. To me this scene wouldn't look out of place in Florida in summer(Delaware this past weekend):
A sky like that wouldn't be out of place here in summer either, or any time of the year to a lesser degree.
Even though Koppen uses the term subtropical, it doesn't seem to me, to have a strong rationale to it. It seems a more generic term to me.
Ironically , I've never thought of here as subtropical, because it would never be considered so within the NZ context (although Trewatha would consider it to be). At the same time, for as long as I've been interested in climates, I've considered NYC, to have a summer that seems tropical to me.
Somehow, I've found myself in the Scilly Isles corner, based on my relatively recent awareness of Trewartha, and sort of making it up as I go.
I do agree however, that the subtropical label has been twisted and maligned over the years. Just because cities like NYC or Pusan have tropical like summers, they are not subtropical. The same can be said for attempting to paint high latitude oceanic climates (PNW, much of New Zealand, Western Europe…etc) as mild or subtropical because of fewer frosts (yet they have cool summers, low sun angles, and little "hot tropical weather") is very misleading and not what was intended
I was referring to more like the twisting of the term subtropical to mean something almost identical to a true tropical climate, like how people try to exclude everything but the Gulf Coast from being subtropical when in fact it is a much broader category. Many parts of Ohio don't have a persistent snowpack in winter and they are above 22C in summer, so they are Cfa/subtropical climates. I think it's unfair to try to differentiate them - it's a difference of degree, not kind, throughout this zone and Northern Florida and Ohio are close to the edges, in Ohio's case bordering on continental and in North Florida's case bordering on tropical. I could make the same complaint about subarctic climates - Kiruna and Murmansk are different from places like Fairbanks and some sites in Mongolia, but that doesn't mean they must be differentiated - they share essentially the same characteristics. Just because they share essentially the same characteristics don't mean they're "the same climate". That's the whole point of climate zones. They're not supposed to be identical. If they were then we'd have a different zone for every acre of the planet. What you choose to label the Cfa zone or if you want to use the Koeppen system at all is your business, but for my part I think it's quite sensible.
As for having tropical-like summers, I agree that it doesn't mean that you're subtropical. It also depends on the winter. If you maintain a snowpack in an average winter then you have a classic continental climate with hot summers. If you don't then you have a subtropical climate, with winters that fall short and hot summers. NYC falls into this category.
A sky like that wouldn't be out of place here in summer either, or any time of the year to a lesser degree.
Even though Koppen uses the term subtropical, it doesn't seem to me, to have a strong rationale to it. It seems a more generic term to me.
Ironically , I've never thought of here as subtropical, because it would never be considered so within the NZ context (although Trewatha would consider it to be). At the same time, for as long as I've been interested in climates, I've considered NYC, to have a summer that seems tropical to me.
Somehow, I've found myself in the Scilly Isles corner, based on my relatively recent awareness of Trewartha, and sort of making it up as I go.
You may have a sky like that but you didn't feel what it was like. Try 88F with a dew point of around 70F when I took that pic. The high/low that day was 92/70F. How often does that happen where you are? 87F is the avg high here in July. How often is your surf temp in the upper 70's? That warm ocean water was creating the dew point and the feel of the air with those clouds. We get those clouds sometimes in Spring and the air feels totally diff when it is barely 72F, probably typical for your summer. We sit in tropical air masses much more often than places with maritime climates. I'm curious if you would ever see a forecast like this in Nelson NZ?
A sky like that wouldn't be out of place here in summer either, or any time of the year to a lesser degree.
Even though Koppen uses the term subtropical, it doesn't seem to me, to have a strong rationale to it. It seems a more generic term to me.
Ironically , I've never thought of here as subtropical, because it would never be considered so within the NZ context (although Trewatha would consider it to be). At the same time, for as long as I've been interested in climates, I've considered NYC, to have a summer that seems tropical to me.
Somehow, I've found myself in the Scilly Isles corner, based on my relatively recent awareness of Trewartha, and sort of making it up as I go.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is getting muddled up. There seems to me a group of warm/hot loving folks that hate temps below 32F, but don't really care if they ever get truly warm/hot temps any other time of the year let alone winter. To me a place that is cloudy and cool all winter with low temps that don't go below freezing much, but at the same time avg high temps in the 40's in winter, and 60's in summer, just doesn't seem subtropical despite being able to grow more cold adverse vegetation.
The landscape of England did not look subtropical to me at all, and neither did coastal Oregon. These same 32F averse heat lovers write off a climate where I live as a frigid winter no mans land, and seem to me would rather get three months of mild winter lows, and no real heat any time of the year at all. England felt downright freezing at times in January when I was there despite actually being above freezing.
Here we get three months with avg wiinter lows below freezing, but "average" (some years more, some less) almost one month in winter with days above 50F. We get true tropical warmth/heat for 3 to 4 months year in year out with the associated humidity, dew point, warm ocean water, etc. yet we are no where near tropical compared to a place like Scilly or other maritime climates? Just seems totally silly to me regardless of the cultivated vegetation growing there. Why would a true heat lover ever want to spend every year never getting any hot weather? I don't get it.
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