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Why can't tropical climates have frost? This is the 1 billion dollar question to which I am dying to hear an answer. I think warmth lovers are more fixated on frost than cold lovers. What's wrong with frost? If subarctic climates like Yakutsk and Tiksi are allowed to have 90F+ heat in the summer, why can't the tropical climates get frost? If 93F doesn't disqualify Yakutsk from being subarctic, how can 32F disqualify a tropical climate from being tropical? Someone explains the double standard here.
Sea temperatures. You have no idea how much the sea affects the temperature. It has a massive affect. Where I live we are often in marginal conditions due to the sea. Without the sea our average temp would be several degrees colder.
Because, as what I call them, northerners have an idealized view of the tropics that it's always hot and sunny and clear skies 365 days a year. Everyday is "paradise" and that paradise fits in their worldview that there must be no conditions that kill off or prevent coconut palm trees from growing, basically. Even in Puerto Rico in the highland areas we have below 60°F conditions and have seen sleet come down from the sky in Aibonito, PR which is Puerto Rico's highest elevation town (1700 feet in the valley, 3000 feet in the peaks beside it). To a northerner they'll say no that's not tropical no way. Really? It's 18°N from the equator, how is that NOT tropical? I spent the first 10 years of my life living close enough to the equator to see the top of Crux and Alpha Centauri during a few months of the year, I know what I speak of
I've looked up the climate for Aibonito (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aibonito#Climate) and I have to laugh. How the hell is that cold? It is tropical, the coldest month has a mean 2C higher than the 18C threshold for tropical climates. The record lows are much above freezing (BTW what were the conditions when the sleet was falling? Seems impossible to me to have anything frozen except hail falling at temperatures this high). And it isn't too rainy either, it has only 99 days of rain faily evenly distributed throughout the year. To me, as a northerner, it's like perpetual summer, in both temperatures and precipitation. Those northerners you're talking about must be pretty dumb if they think a rainforest climate is like a desert climate and don't know that it's colder in higher elevations. Why should people agree with you that this climate is worse than warmer tropical climates? IDK but I think the idea of "paradise" is that the climate is very pleasant and this IMHO fits it better than some stifling hot lowland or a desert with no water and blazing sun 365 days a year. Really, if you think this is somehow miserably cold you have no sense of proportion as to what cold is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed
Take home point, the tropics are not what you see in the Sandals commercials or the movies. Yes it can get cold (like the Amazon in winter 2010) and the "blue skies and sunshine" last only a few months
What are some movies that in your opinion show this false image of the tropics? Many movies show some rain or cloudy weather in the tropics.
Year-round consistently warm weather is typical for the tropics. Some tropical places get significantly cold occasionally (e.g. south Florida), some don't (e.g. Singapore). Rainfall patterns also vary.
Last edited by darth serious; 10-25-2012 at 02:06 AM..
I've looked up the climate for Aibonito (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aibonito#Climate) and I have to laugh. How the hell is that cold? It is tropical, the coldest month has a mean 2C higher than the 18C threshold for tropical climates. The record lows are much above freezing (BTW what were the conditions when the sleet was falling? Seems impossible to me to have anything frozen except hail falling at temperatures this high). And it isn't too rainy either, it has only 99 days of rain faily evenly distributed throughout the year. To me, as a northerner, it's like perpetual summer, in both temperatures and precipitation. Those northerners you're talking about must be pretty dumb if they think a rainforest climate is like a desert climate and don't know that it's colder in higher elevations. Why should people agree with you that this climate is worse than warmer tropical climates? IDK but I think the idea of "paradise" is that the climate is very pleasant and this IMHO fits it better than some stifling hot lowland or a desert with no water and blazing sun 365 days a year. Really, if you think this is somehow miserably cold you have no sense of proportion as to what cold is.
What are some movies that in your opinion show this false image of the tropics? Many movies show some rain or cloudy weather in the tropics.
Year-round consistently warm weather is typical for the tropics. Some tropical places get significantly cold occasionally (e.g. south Florida), some don't (e.g. Singapore). Rainfall patterns also vary.
I made a mistake. It's not Aibonito that's cold in Puerto Rico, it's Adjuntas. I always get the two confused. Adjuntas is the highest city in Puerto Rico. And, yes, Puerto Rico does get cold fronts as well, but they cool the coastal areas down to the high 70s daytime and mid 60s nighttime while in Adjuntas it's been known to go down into the 40s at night when a cold front passes through. Oh, and, those averages you see are averages, they don't take into account local varying conditions. You look at average winter temps for Miami and think oh this is a really warm place while forgetting that cold fronts come through and chill the air there.
Aibonito is also a drier microclimate than the surrounding areas. Aibonito is near the leeward side of the mountains, as the mountains north of it absorb most of the showers that batter the northern half of the island. Where I used to live, about 20 miles north, has almost 200 days of measurable precipitation a year compared to Aibonito's 99. Aibonito is near the Aw and BSh parts of the island and is the last town right before the rain shadow. You can't trust statistics for a lot of places in Puerto Rico outside of the San Juan area, especially since Puerto Rico has a lot of microclimates. You have El Yunque which rains almost 365 days a year and 2 miles east of it the rain drastically cuts down. You have to see it for yourself. I lived, as most of Puerto Rico's people do, in the very rainy side where it rains constantly most of the year, more than London or Vancouver.
Also, the people you described, the average tourist isn't a weather geek. They don't care for the nuances of climate like we do. They only go by what they see in the glossy brochures, and most people think the deep tropics are a sunny paradise where it doesn't rain, yet everything is mysteriously green. This is because most tourists visit the tropics in the winter time, when in most places it doesn't rain.
Now that's one thing I've noticed: people see climates as relative to the one they live in. If we define subtropical as "having a much warmer winter than where I live" we'll end up with almost all or almost none climates being classified as subtropical depending on who classifies them . 6C mean in January and February is more than 6C warmer than where I live - that would be an extremely warm winter. Last December and first half of January was really warm and it was indeed quite strange to see green grass, no snow and no ice as if this were some oceanic climate like the UK and not inland central Europe. The British isles have very warm winters for their latitude, it's not like if some place has winter temperatures like England it's cold and can't be subtropical. Sochi has much warmer summers. Is it only winter that matters? Is it only average temperatures or are extreme temperatures also important? It's not clear what is subtropical and what is not. You may think it's clear but that's how you see it. A commonly accepted definition of subtropical is in the Koppen or Trewartha systems but it looks like you have a very different idea of what is subtropical if 6C mean of the coldest month makes a place too cold to be called subtropical no matter what.
Mediterranean climates don't necessarily have hot summers. Those around the Mediterranean sea do though.
Cold and warm is relative. Also, does it matter if the place has warm averages but can drop much below freezing occasionaly (that's true for a lot of places in the south of the US)?
That's one way to do it. But it would make some places with cold winters but very hot summers subtropical. Also it's kind of arbitrary - why should it be 18C? But that's true of the other definitions as well - the thresholds don't correspond much to anything real. Is really a place in Australia with average annual mean of 19C somehow fundamentally different from a place where it is 17C? I don't think so. But it's the same problem as with the other definitions: they're all arbitrary thresholds used to divide a continuum and where these thresholds are depends basically on where we want to have them.
I wasn't simply comparing Sochi's winters to my own, yes their winters have colder temperatures than where I live, but that wasn't the point. The point is somewhere with a sub-tropical climate should have reasonably warm winters, otherwise you could say that New York has a sub-tropical climate, when it very obviously doesn't. Warm summers alone do not make a sub-tropical climate...
Most Mediterranean climates do have warm/hot summers & places that fit the criteria of warm summers & cool/mild winters (as opposed to warm winters) & with a distinct difference in summer/winter precipitation should be classed as having such a climate & not sub-tropical.
Parts of the south of the US do confuse things, which is why the general classifications are quite flawed. Many parts of Florida have a sub-tropical climate, but they also get occassional freezes, so do we have a cut off point as to what minimum temperature is acceptable? Or do we have to class these such places as a different category of their own?
Common sense overall needs to be used when deciding if somewhere is sub-tropical or not, as has been clearly shown some places that technically fit the criteria for meeting a sub-tropical climate are clearly not sub-tropical...
I wasn't simply comparing Sochi's winters to my own, yes their winters have colder temperatures than where I live, but that wasn't the point. The point is somewhere with a sub-tropical climate should have reasonably warm winters, otherwise you could say that New York has a sub-tropical climate, when it very obviously doesn't. Warm summers alone do not make a sub-tropical climate...
Most Mediterranean climates do have warm/hot summers & places that fit the criteria of warm summers & cool/mild winters (as opposed to warm winters) & with a distinct difference in summer/winter precipitation should be classed as having such a climate & not sub-tropical.
Parts of the south of the US do confuse things, which is why the general classifications are quite flawed. Many parts of Florida have a sub-tropical climate, but they also get occassional freezes, so do we have a cut off point as to what minimum temperature is acceptable? Or do we have to class these such places as a different category of their own?
Common sense overall needs to be used when deciding if somewhere is sub-tropical or not, as has been clearly shown some places that technically fit the criteria for meeting a sub-tropical climate are clearly not sub-tropical...
As you can see by the current number of pages to this thread (more than 29,000 views too!) this topic has been batted all over the place. I find it quite interesting however.
I think when they (climatologists) develpoed climate classifications, they made an attempt to group climates by their genetic factors (seasonal wind patterns, seasonal rainfall, change in solar angle,,,etc)...temp thresholds were only part of the classification process.
It seems that the science of how they classify climates works well with the “real world” nature of most climates. Tropical climates (A), except tropical highlands have no frost (EVER) because of their genetic characterizes..i.e they are located in the lowest latitudes…they receive strong solar radiation…there are no source regions to bring in cold air masses…etc.
In terms of subtropical climates (C)...they are thought to be the transition zone from frost-free tropical climates….to seasonal frost/freeze of the temperate zone (D). So subtropical climates do see freeze/frost…but it is often quite fleeting. Florida is a good example of this. Cities like Orlando, Daytona Beach, Tampa, Melbourne, …etc might see 2 to 3 nights out of 365 when the temp dips below freezing - yet, winters in these climates are obviously warm and mild with daily highs in the 60’s and 70’s . That is a far cry (and different climate genetics are at work) from a place like NYC or Sochi where winters have many frosts and are truly cold.
It seems interesting to me that when it comes to tropical, temperate, continental, etc. not much dispute, but sub-tropical brings out the most splitting of hairs, lol.
As you can see by the current number of pages to this thread (more than 29,000 views too!) this topic has been batted all over the place. I find it quite interesting however.
I think when they (climatologists) develpoed climate classifications, they made an attempt to group climates by their genetic factors (seasonal wind patterns, seasonal rainfall, change in solar angle,,,etc)...temp thresholds were only part of the classification process.
It seems that the science of how they classify climates works well with the “real world” nature of most climates. Tropical climates (A), except tropical highlands have no frost (EVER) because of their genetic characterizes..i.e they are located in the lowest latitudes…they receive strong solar radiation…there are no source regions to bring in cold air masses…etc.
In terms of subtropical climates (C)...they are thought to be the transition zone from frost-free tropical climates….to seasonal frost/freeze of the temperate zone (D). So subtropical climates do see freeze/frost…but it is often quite fleeting. Florida is a good example of this. Cities like Orlando, Daytona Beach, Tampa, Melbourne, …etc might see 2 to 3 nights out of 365 when the temp dips below freezing - yet, winters in these climates are obviously warm and mild with daily highs in the 60’s and 70’s . That is a far cry (and different climate genetics are at work) from a place like NYC or Sochi where winters have many frosts and are truly cold.
It seems some people have to classify places with a certain climate, & only put them into those boxes, when in actual fact many places have quite unique climates that don't represent a standard climate at all...
I agree that sub-tropical climates can have frost, but nothing too severe & the daytime re-bounds must also climb so that a reasonably warm day follows. Places like Sochi could have -3C at night & only reach +5C the following day, where places in Florida could have -3C & be followed by a daytime high of 18C.
So I think daytime highs are more important than than nightime lows, generally! But this just continues to confuse the situation lol
It seems interesting to me that when it comes to tropical, temperate, continental, etc. not much dispute, but sub-tropical brings out the most splitting of hairs, lol.
I see it as about the transitional aspect of the term, and it's the marginal areas that are of most interest to me. Vegetation is important to this as it doesn't always follow classification systems, but is something which can't be ignored.
The "genetic" aspect is also interesting, and areas that don't fit neatly into those descriptions are generally contentious.
Then there is the straight forward warmest to coldest climate argument, which while interesting, is not as relevant (imo).
In terms of subtropical climates (C)...they are thought to be the transition zone from frost-free tropical climates….to seasonal frost/freeze of the temperate zone (D). So subtropical climates do see freeze/frost…but it is often quite fleeting. Florida is a good example of this. Cities like Orlando, Daytona Beach, Tampa, Melbourne, …etc might see 2 to 3 nights out of 365 when the temp dips below freezing - yet, winters in these climates are obviously warm and mild with daily highs in the 60’s and 70’s . That is a far cry (and different climate genetics are at work) from a place like NYC or Sochi where winters have many frosts and are truly cold.
Sochi and NYC are somewhat different, but Sochi straddles the line of my classification. Coldest month is 6°C, one degree below what I believe is a reasonable threshold 7°C. Summers look similar to NYC.
Going by Trewatha's 8 month threshold, Sochi qualifies by having 8 months > 10°C. What was Trewatha's boundary between subtropical and oceanic? Warmest month is 23.6°C, so range is 18.6°C.
The word subtropical is IMMEDIATELY above the tropics. Miami is an example of SUBTROPICAL. Other places such as South Carolina are NOT.
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. 6C mean in January and February is more than 6C warmer than where I live - that would be an extremely warm winter. Last December and first half of January was really warm and it was indeed quite strange to see green grass, no snow and no ice as if this were some oceanic climate like the UK and not inland central Europe. The British isles have very warm winters for their latitude, it's not like if some place has winter temperatures like England it's cold and can't be subtropical. Sochi has much warmer summers. Is it only winter that matters? Is it only average temperatures or are extreme temperatures also important? It's not clear what is subtropical and what is not. You may think it's clear but that's how you see it. A commonly accepted definition of subtropical is in the Koppen or Trewartha systems but it looks like you have a very different idea of what is subtropical if 6C mean of the coldest month makes a place too cold to be called subtropical no matter what.
