Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It seems like part of the confusion on this thread is semantics.
A poster has used "low income" to be synonymous with "low-cost"--that is, is using price info (low cost) to support an assertion of low-income housing.
But "low income" and "low-cost" are not synonymous.
"Low income" housing would mean that the residents are, in the case of some low-income subsidized housing, required to have only a very low income in order to qualify to live there, and in other cases of nonsubsidized housing, it would be correct to call it "low-income housing" if the residents, while not being required to be of a certain income group to live there, just in fact are low income. Whereas "low-cost" housing means the cost of living there is low.
Low income and low-cost would be expected in many real-life situations to be correlated (stastically associated with each other) to some degree, but would not by definition have to be correlated. Those of us who are looking for low-cost retirement housing without the problems sometimes associated with low-income housing (for example, who are looking to avoid high crime) are looking for communities where that correlation is low or nonexistent. (Or actually, some of us wouldn't mind a place where there is that correlation but there is nevertheless an absence of problems like high crime--certainly possible too.)
Think of a fast-food restaurant chain. We wouldn't describe the food as low income; we'd describe it as low-cost. Some people who go to that fast-food restaurant are probably low income, but others are higher income but choose to go there for a variety of reasons (convenient location, drive-through service, speed of service, familiar menu, open at times when their favorite restaurant might not be, maybe even their kids love it and don't want to go other places). The person who goes to the fast-food restaurant down the street from their office every day for lunch may be frequenting upscale restaurants on the weekend.
One point worth noting with respect to how low income and low-cost are not necessarily always correlated is that (as has been alluded to in this thread) not everyone is concerned with keeping up with the Joneses.
So, when it comes to Kings Point, we have the prices as public information, so it is low-cost for the surrounding area. But whether it is low-income is an empirical question, and I don't know that the data (average income of everyone who lives there) is publicly available to answer that question.
So, in the absence of that statistical data, it's been very helpful to me to have the anecdotal info people have taken the time to post (about parents, parents' friends, etc.).
Last edited by City__Datarer; 02-28-2013 at 10:54 AM..
It seems like part of the confusion on this thread is semantics.
A poster has used "low income" to be synonymous with "low-cost"--that is, is using price info (low cost) to support an assertion of low-income housing.
But "low income" and "low-cost" are not synonymous.
"Low income" housing would mean that the residents are, in the case of some low-income subsidized housing, required to have only a very low income in order to qualify to live there, and in other cases of nonsubsidized housing, it would be correct to call it "low-income housing" if the residents, while not being required to be of a certain income group to live there, just in fact are low income. Whereas "low-cost" housing means the cost of living there is low.
Low income and low-cost would be expected in many real-life situations to be correlated (stastically associated with each other) to some degree, but would not by definition have to be correlated. Those of us who are looking for low-cost housing without the problems often associated with low-income housing (for example, who are looking to avoid high crime) are looking for communities where that correlation is low or nonexistent.
Think of a fast-food restaurant chain. We wouldn't describe the food as low income; we'd describe it as low-cost. Some people who go to that fast-food restaurant are probably low income, but others are higher income but choose to go there for a variety of reasons (convenient location, drive-through service, speed of service, familiar menu, open at times when their favorite restaurant might not be, maybe even their kids love it and don't want to go other places). The person who goes to the fast-food restaurant down the street from their office every day for lunch may be frequenting upscale restaurants on the weekend.
One point worth noting with respect to how low income and low-cost are not necessarily always correlated is that (as has been alluded to in this thread) not everyone is concerned with keeping up with the Joneses.
So, when it comes to Kings Point, we have the prices as public information, so it is low-cost for the surrounding area. But whether it is low-income is an empirical question, and I don't know that the data (average income of everyone who lives there) is publicly available to answer that question.
So, in the absence of that statistical data, it's been very helpful to me to have the anecdotal info people have taken the time to post (about parents, parents' friends, etc.).
I agree with you to a "point" (no pun intended).......
Low income and low price are directly related on some levels, Donald Trump may buy lunch at McDonalds but very few low income folks are dining at Mar-a-Lago!
Also note that people's homes tend to be the biggest asset they own, not in every case but in many cases it is. Simply by looking at the inventory available at the sub 30K price point you simply do not see the trappings of wealth so the "winter/snowbirds from the Hamptons" theory goes right out the window. These sub 30K listings show people that live very simply. If it was one or two residences then maybe it could be dismissed as "frugal old people" but 90+ listings seems to show a pattern......
The other disturbing trend is the devaluation of the KP properties over their 35 year existence. If it was a thriving, prosperous area as some have claimed then why are the values so low, in many cases lower than their original cost 35 years ago? That is unheard of over such a long period, yes plenty of war stories from the peak/boom of 2005-2006 but historically real estate rises in value.
Anyone who has worked or lived in that corridor knows that the KP residents tend to be poorer folks that live on small fixed incomes and conversely the folks just south of KP in Addison Reserve are the wealthy retirees in West Delray Beach. Most of the time they even tell you how poor they are when they are trying to get a better price.
My favorite response to the "I'm retired and living on a fixed income" line......"Well I would rather live on a fixed income than a broken one!"
I have never been to Kings Point and so defer to you and the other posters who have direct experience to share (which again, is very helpful to those of us trying to decide whether it's worth the time/travel to check out in person). Was simply trying to clarify the terminology.
As to your point about low-income people not generally frequenting high-cost places, I'd agree, but correlations can hold within certain ranges of values and not others (in other words the fact that low-income people are not generally frequenting high-cost places says nothing about low-cost places).
I did want to say (this has nothing to do with what you posted but just for anyone else reading your quote of me) that I reread and edited my post right after posting, and the version you posted was my earlier draft (I did not mean to imply that one would necessarily find crime to be high where incomes are low, and I amended my post to clarify this).
I would say KP is a reasonably safe community. The crimes reported there usually are caretakers taking advantage of them, fraudulent contractors type stuff.
You don't worry about getting carjacked in your 15 year old Crown Vic and the chance of snatching a Louis Vuiiton handbag loaded with an iPhone 5, Rolex and Black Amex card is pretty much impossible so the criminals tend to leave these types of communities alone.
Good to know, thanks. (You've answered what is my biggest question whenever I look at lower cost housing. The larger area has all the amenities I could want; I don't necessarily need my condo complex to offer them. My deal-breaker would be high crime.)
this is all very amusing Im sorry but I see it so differently since I personally know alot of people in KP and they are not poor by any stretch of the means nor are they on FIXED INCOME'S...we are looking to buy my parents a place there instead of them renting just because at their age who needs a mortgage....and their friends all drive very nice new cars by the way..Not sure if City do you actually know people who live there on a day to day basis? and you know all of their situations?? I know have a few of my neighbors who are buying in KP for their parents as well cause of the prices of the homes and well coming from up north what a great way to live mortgage and hassle free....and not deal with winters...hmmmm I know for my parents we arent worried about having to sell heavens forbid that time comes and they aren't here anymore we can always rent it out....
this is all very amusing Im sorry but I see it so differently since I personally know alot of people in KP and they are not poor by any stretch of the means nor are they on FIXED INCOME'S...we are looking to buy my parents a place there instead of them renting just because at their age who needs a mortgage....and their friends all drive very nice new cars by the way..Not sure if City do you actually know people who live there on a day to day basis? and you know all of their situations?? I know have a few of my neighbors who are buying in KP for their parents as well cause of the prices of the homes and well coming from up north what a great way to live mortgage and hassle free....and not deal with winters...hmmmm I know for my parents we arent worried about having to sell heavens forbid that time comes and they aren't here anymore we can always rent it out....
SM- I addressed you in post #24 and was anxiously awaiting your response but your new post seems to bring up new issues....
1. If your parents need a place and they are "not poor by any stretch of the means nor they are on a FIXED INCOME" then why would they need to rent or need a mortgage for a unit that could be purchased as cheaply as $15,000? Heck most people could put that on their credit card nevermind have their kids buy them a unit.....hmmmm
2. You mention owning a unit then renting it out. What do you think a $15,000 unit could possibly rent for?
3. I was very interested in your opinion, I reference it in post #24: "As a former real estate professional with experience with KP"....How do you explain the dismal resale values in KP over the past 35 years? Units are worth 1/3 of what they sold for new in 1978 in some cases! If the place is really full of independently wealthy 1%r's that are wintering from NY and enjoying this fabulous community with lots of entertainment/clubs etc. , then why are so many units for sale for less than the price of a new Chevrolet?
Anyone that has been to Kings Point or Century Village will quickly realize that it is a low income retirement community. Note the cars in the parking lots (not high line by any means), note the free bus service for those that don't own cars and look at the general condition of the buildings. Central A/C is NOT STANDARD by a long shot, many "window shakers" hanging off the side of buildings.
My attorney recently sold his mother's unit in Century Village. WPB. He got $8,000 for it fully furnished.....Yep, some rich 1%'r swooped in and "stole it!" His reasoning, he just wanted to dump it so he couldn't get popped for any future "special assessment" that would negate his sale value.
a 2 bedroom 2 bath with washer and dryer will rent for 1200-1350 a month...That I can tell you fact...my parents have no desire to buy because my parents are getting older and it wont be too long before my dad cant do the trip anymore...all these years that they had been down here, they stayed with my aunt and uncle they had built a condo 9 years ago on Hillsboro Mile and just sold and bought a 3M dollar house so they decided a few years ago they were going to rent, since so many of their friends bought and rent in KP and they wanted their privacy etc so with that being said we were thinking about buying one for them and renting it out and if not then no biggie...DH's friends parents who own a 950k house in Brooklyn with no mortgage and just bought a unit there can they afford the "upscale ones absolutely but someone in their late 60's who wants too...My point being is that everyone has their own situation, and if you saw where so many of those residence live FULL time would know that this isnt "Low Income" Let me also state that quiet a bit of those people who buy in the "upscale" sold their homes for instance my parents development this sold their Home paid cash for their house in NJ and then decided they wanted to stay in FL permanently so after living in that house for 13 years they sold it and bought their home in Valenzia for cash...funny thing is he never made a ton of money and they are NOT rich they just made some good real estate investments and are living on their profits so with that said unless you know where these people came from you have NOT so weatlhy people in these upscale developments and you have quite of people who have money in a development like KP...You will see it the way that you do...
And let me add the REAL ESTATE VALUES are not what they were so it is a very very bad comparison because although KP is cheap as you say it alot of years ago it wasnt so cheap...and you can thank the Economy for the real estate collapse..Also remember that most of KP are snowbirds and for the 3 or 4 months they are there what is the difference???
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
