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Hey i am sorry for seeming to have so much anger on here , this is my last post. The issue of the job market in the Kanawha valley is close to my heart, and it causes emotions to come out. I can tell all you people are good people just like 95% of West virginians are. Sometimes the issue of me and my closes friends leaving our families and west virginia brother and sisters behind creates a conflicting effect of emotions. I will always be a West Virginian at heart , we are a unique ethic group that has a beautiful culture and I will pass that down to my kids, and hopefully they will pass it down for generations. I have seen the culture trampled on with the great exodus of people leaving the state , and the media making fun of it. I have seen lost hope especially in the small working class towns where in some cases drugs like oxys and meth have ruined a generation. I have seen people I grew up with go from being happy vibrant people to having no hope at all because they don't want to leave the state or are making extreme low pay compared to the generations before them. I know these issues are not only in WV but that's where I seen them , and that where it breaks my heart. I hope you guys are telling the truth about jobs coming to the valley , I would like to see some local investment and West Virginians creating those jobs. I only hope the next time I come back for a high school reunion I can see that my brother and sisters are doing good in West By God Virginia ....
Hey i am sorry for seeming to have so much anger on here , this is my last post. The issue of the job market in the Kanawha valley is close to my heart, and it causes emotions to come out. I can tell all you people are good people just like 95% of West virginians are. Sometimes the issue of me and my closes friends leaving our families and west virginia brother and sisters behind creates a conflicting effect of emotions. I will always be a West Virginian at heart , we are a unique ethic group that has a beautiful culture and I will pass that down to my kids, and hopefully they will pass it down for generations. I have seen the culture trampled on with the great exodus of people leaving the state , and the media making fun of it. I have seen lost hope especially in the small working class towns where in some cases drugs like oxys and meth have ruined a generation. I have seen people I grew up with go from being happy vibrant people to having no hope at all because they don't want to leave the state or are making extreme low pay compared to the generations before them. I know these issues are not only in WV but that's where I seen them , and that where it breaks my heart. I hope you guys are telling the truth about jobs coming to the valley , I would like to see some local investment and West Virginians creating those jobs. I only hope the next time I come back for a high school reunion I can see that my brother and sisters are doing good in West By God Virginia ....
And that's the truth without all the sugar coating and pull yourself up by your bootstraps because opportunities abound advice. JMHO.
Btw, I've worked a few of those high school reunions. You can always tell the people who haven't left WV. They're the ones dropping hundreds on scratch offs hoping for that thousand dollar payout.
Like I heard a woman say once.."Born poor, die poor." That's the reality for a lot of folks here and that is the sum of their expectations.
"Btw, I've worked a few of those high school reunions. You can always tell the people who haven't left WV. They're the ones dropping hundreds on scratch offs hoping for that thousand dollar payout."
Don't know what reunion you have gone to - but sounds like you need to expand your horizons.
IF you don't want to work for $50k a year then move on and let me apply! Never have made more than $25k a year and am in school so that I can eventually be making $50k a year in cnc machining. $50k is a lot if you know how to spend it wisely and invest it as well. Main problem is cost of living. I believe that WV cost of living is low so $50k isn't bad.
And that's the truth without all the sugar coating and pull yourself up by your bootstraps because opportunities abound advice. JMHO.
Btw, I've worked a few of those high school reunions. You can always tell the people who haven't left WV. They're the ones dropping hundreds on scratch offs hoping for that thousand dollar payout.
Like I heard a woman say once.."Born poor, die poor." That's the reality for a lot of folks here and that is the sum of their expectations.
The short answer is in my status quote.
Millers this isn't directed at one person, but at a behavior/ attitude common in this thread, and among the people you highlight. Hate me if you need to for saying it, I'm not in this to win popularity contests. I have no ill will towards anyone because it's a waste of time. I truly do appreciate polite folks, but NEVER at the expense of the truth. That's where illusions of 'respect' are disingenuous & springboard to contempt. You've implied I've been disingenuous because you don't want to believe any other story than what you've sold yourself. I guess things have to be blunt as a ton of bricks for you to feel it enough. There's toilet paper on your shoe, spinach in your teeth, and your zipper is down.
Throughout the world people who succeed become a model to emulate and others follow their example. It doesn't matter race, creed, gender- that's how human beings learn and grow. Those who cultivate an appreciation for true friends that tell the truth vs stroke egos tend to go further in life than those who need validation 24/7. Consistent observations I've made- a leader too emotionally weak to take in reality is unqualified. You also cannot teach the unwilling anything. Those are your zombies. Might as well be dead 20 yrs ago, same difference.
The biggest voluntary handicap I see- the knee jerk reaction of false pride- "outsiders ought to shut up, we don't need input"? How's that worked out for everybody? Want to put your money where your mouth is, it means you'll quit whining now, because everything is perfectly arranged for you, right? Once the entire outside world does shut up, you'll follow through with talk of how the world neglected and abandoned you? Isn't that interesting!!!!
People do succeed in WV, but you use those who aren't (and won't because you've reinforced they won't) as the measure of the whole worth of WV and what it's future will be. Cheap and dirty media does the exact same thing, but when it comes from natives, you've actively become a part of self destructive behavior you <allegedly> detest.
Martyrdom/victimhood pays how much an hour? This is the identity you as an adult offer the youth of WV. Yes indeed I can empathize strongly with them, but not for the reasons they think. Perpetual negativity imposed upon children is the equivalent of an 18 yr dose of psychological abuse. Adults don't fare much better. Think about it.
This post is too long? Someone cared enough to give you the time of day, and a real solution within anyones means (self discipline) to address the social (and in turn, economic) problems you complain about. It's already kitchen tested by myself, and by the people who taught me. You're welcome. Care to keep selling the oppressed story, it's the quickest way to not only get attention, but a salary reduction to validate your nihilistic opinion (AKA kick me sign).
Millers this isn't directed at one person, but at a behavior/ attitude common in this thread, and among the people you highlight. Hate me if you need to for saying it, I'm not in this to win popularity contests. I have no ill will towards anyone because it's a waste of time. I truly do appreciate polite folks, but NEVER at the expense of the truth. That's where illusions of 'respect' are disingenuous & springboard to contempt. You've implied I've been disingenuous because you don't want to believe any other story than what you've sold yourself. I guess things have to be blunt as a ton of bricks for you to feel it enough. There's toilet paper on your shoe, spinach in your teeth, and your zipper is down.
HL, I didn't even direct my answer to you. Not sure where you're getting that. It was in response to steelersfan post. You are assuming a lot about me from a VERY short post. I doubt there's spinach in my teeth. Hate it. But I do take a multivitamin.
Quote:
The biggest voluntary handicap I see- the knee jerk reaction of false pride- "outsiders ought to shut up, we don't need input"? How's that worked out for everybody? Want to put your money where your mouth is, it means you'll quit whining now, because everything is perfectly arranged for you, right? Once the entire outside world does shut up, you'll follow through with talk of how the world neglected and abandoned you? Isn't that interesting!!!!
I hope you're not talking about me because I wasn't talking about me. I was just making some general observations about what I and others see. And I don't whine. Ask anyone who knows me.
I was just stating facts. This forum does have a tendency to portray WV in only positive ways.
I'm living here. Obviously, I'm happy or I wouldn't be here. But I just think it is misleading for people who are basing a move here on information on the internet to paint the state in only these glowig descriptions. Personally, I don't think it's wise to relocate to a whole other place based only on what someone on the internet says about it but since people do, it should be a little more balanced.
WV has problems. Every state has problems.
WV has widespread poverty and generational SSI recipients. That is a fact. I't's ranked fourth and yes, I realize this is from 2003 but it's the latest stats I could find.
I am not a sociologist and I cannot sit here and tell you why poverty repeats itself from generation to generation except for a very small minority who do succeed in spite of growing up poor. No more than I can tell you why a battered spouse stays with her husband until he kills her. Obviously, there are deep psychological issues that are not easy to overcome.
And there is also the lack of opportunity. All I hear in the political ads is coal, coal, coal. When you base your entire economy on one industry, you really limit jobs for most people. Coal cannot employ the entire state. In fact, not every county is even a coal mining county.
And how many people here get a college education? West Virginia again at the bottom.
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How many of that small number stay here and work?
So I stand by my statement that pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is crap. It does not inspire anyone. In fact, it probably makes them even more depressed because they lack the means and understanding on how to do so.
So that's the other side of the coin. It's real. I see it every day and I am not in denial about it.
It is also presumptious to assume that poor people are miserable. Some of the most content people I've met have had very little. Some of the most miserable people I've met have money.
So let's all just be happy we are here and we ain't going anywhere. It's autumn and the foilage is just outstanding this year. The leaf peepers are visiting in droves now and they all say the same thing about this wonderful state. Even those with preconceptions.
They have never been treated more politely or nicely anywhere else. Everyone is so helpful and goes out of their way to make their stay a pleasant one. They have never seen such beautiful countryside and wilderness before.
Btw, my taglines have been taken from a song by James McMurtry who lives in Texas. But it's always applied to WV for me too.
Quote:
Out Here in the Middle
James McMurty
They broke into your car last night
Took the stereo
Now you say you don't know why
You even live there anymore
The garageman didn't see a thing
So you guess it was an inside job
You made a reservation, a table for three
They said you had to wait
Someone must've bribed the maitre'd
The boss got mad and blamed it all you
The food was bad, the deal fell through
Out here in the middle
We can park it on the street
Step up to the counter
Nearly always get a seat
Nobody steals, nobody cheats
Wish you were here my love
Wish you were here
We got tractor pulls and Redman chew
Corporate relo refugees
Who need love too
We ain't seen Elvis in a year or two
We got justification for weath and greed
Amber waves of grain
And bathtub speed
Now, we even got Starbucks
What else you need?
Out here in the middle
Where the center is on the right
The ghost of William Bryant Jennings
Preaches every night
To save your lonely souls
In the dashboard light
Wish you were here, my love
Wish you were here
Out here in the middle
Where the buffalo roam
We're putting up towers
For your cell phones
And we screen all applicants
With a fine toothed comb
Wish you were here, my love
Wish you were here.
This is probably the longest post I've ever written. I don't hate you. Why in the world would I? I don't "hate" anyone.
Here, here - I've seen plenty of them and they haven't had anyone hand them anything, they haven't had any "political favors", etc.
They have certain traits in common such as determination, problem-solving, etc. but the main thing they all have in common - they have WORKED HARD to get where they are.
They didn't step out of college thinking the world owes them a high paying job, a fancy car, and an expensive house as soon as they graduate. They took jobs that weren't going to make them rich if they stayed there forever, worked hard at their jobs, lived within their means, learned all they could at their profession, then took that knowledge and worked their way up the ladder or started their own business.
Vec paying dues isn't something the generation behind me appears to agree with-- right and wrong reasons are there. I think paying dues is important, however, as someone who had a history of being betrayed by paying dues only to have the rules change on me mid stream, I can see their cynicism calling it a carrot and stick policy. Experience is invaluable, however, and translates to business competence if you use it to your advantage. Professional advice I'd offer any generation- if the training you get is specific to the company and not the industry, your resume is not competitive. Keep command and control of your own resume by making sure you're current industry wide, don't allow yourself to be complacent relative to the company plan of what's good enough to get by on.
Millers- You don't want to mislead strangers? Look at your comprehensive quote of "born poor die poor" and tell me where in your wholehearted endorsement of steelers the indication that WV has residents who are normal & happy living here. Or the fact that they outnumber those with troubles like addiction. Or that any of them have any sense beyond what god gave geese. It's false.
Normal and happy isn't something people associate with WV because the only thing that gets attention is what's troubled and needy. The only thing that rates giving them attention is when they're willing to do the work to learn and grow. Otherwise, like you said yourself, they're 'happy being poor'. If that were entirely true, there would be no complaints going on in a thread that was very positive minded and empowering.
I'm glad your post is long. I'm glad you spoke your mind. I'm glad you didn't take what I was saying as a personal attack because it wasn't meant to be that. It's meant to point out a victim mentality that's feeds all the wrong things in WV, and the attitudes towards WV that are way out of line. I do not look at any WV'n and see victim. I wouldn't dare insult someone with sympathy because in a way it's saying- 'you're right, it's hopeless, you'll never be good enough to do better'. I can empathize, I can pick up a shovel and help, I can give them a map I used for a similar conundrum, but sympathy just kills folks. Makes them resign themselves to the ridiculous notion that the roof will always leak instead of getting the gumption to buy shingles.
Plenty of people want to stand on statistics and assume they know what those statistics mean in terms of cause and effect. What would you like to attribute the problems to? Your words allude to the idea that there aren't ANY opportunities in WV, that WV children are handicapped by a school system, and so only the best and brightest have an 'escape route'. GHO, mtneer, and steelersfan don't sound intellectually challenged or 'less than' to me. So lets rule out any lame notion that WV children are inherently incapable of learning. Want to blame schools- the same schools used by GHO, mtneer, and steelersfan produced college bound students. It's quite an embarrassment to america when children of immigrants go to ivy league schools springing forth from the same classroom where johnny can't read. Who else does that leave to blame?
A more unpleasant interpretation of cause and effect- only 17% of parents in WV encourage children to bother with higher education. Why? Because they didn't need it? Who robs a child of their true potential? Anecdotal evidence- down the block from me is a 17 yr old girl who decided she won't go to college. She's using high school years to pursue a certificate to cut hair because she plans on being a stay at home mom for life, just like her mom. She spends more time babysitting her small brother and neighborhood children than doing homework or knowing the issues of the world. Apparently it's based on religious beliefs, which both sides of my family patently rejected for my upbringing without negating religious instruction. I cannot argue, nor will I judge what that family chose for it's own or what she chose for herself. They're willing to be accountable for their own lives, end of discussion. I can only say if she ever wants help with homework, this is where I live. 20yrs from now if she wants help with adult ed classes, my door would remain open.
You still can't see how you're feeding the same SSI recipients you claim are the problem when you portray the idea that the whole wide world is responsible for their choices. Who are these poor people? None of those statistics will admit. Even though neither one of us are sociologists, we can break down things into just two categories- voluntary or involuntary. Being an addict is voluntary, for instance. Nobody forces them, they do it to themselves. So is homelessness when programs exist to get people into housing (shelters, HUD, church, family, private groups etc). Involuntary things are circumstantial- like being on SSI for life because you're paralyzed, having inherent birth defects, being born into poverty, or even getting old with health problems- we don't have a choice.
Voluntary- nobody can help them because in their minds there isn't anything wrong. Doesn't matter what way they went or why, they need only wake up to the reality that their choice isn't working for them. Why waste time talking about it or judging? They're not asking for help, they don't see a need to find a better way... they're 'content' people. It's a non problem. Asking for sympathy? Why would I agree with the retarded notion that someone is helpless? Asking for self help? They can voluntarily adapt to circumstances of life, they can seek as much advice anyone successful can give- and yes- pull themselves up by the bootstraps. This isn't crap. It's fact. This fact exists in every state of the union, and WV is not exempt.
Millers are you native to WV? You don't sound like you lack an education. You came from a wealthy family? You came from a poor family but made it somehow? You're wealthy enough to be reading this blog on a computer with internet access, so I doubt you (or anyone reading this) is really so hard up themselves. By virtue of being in this blog, you're proof that people can make a life for themselves. However, if you're 16 and mean to be a ballerina, WV isn't known for it's expertise, got to follow that rainbow. Nobody demands that of Nebraska, why demand it of WV?
I don't have to like these ill choices people make, I certainly don't agree with them (or I'd be living them out myself), and it's not my business to tell them a thing... until they want to make me pay for their choices (through money or begging for sympathy on a victim podium). Feeding martyrs sympathy is the same as buying a bottle for a drunk. Until I see willingness to learn, grow, work... 'sorry, I can't help you' (because they won't help themselves).
Am I heartless? Look hard at how a charity goes about it's business- if they're empowering people to help themselves, they're honest. When they encourage perpetual dependence... that's designed to keep people being born poor and die poor.
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