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Excuse me, but I happen to know West Virginians are Americans.
I know that because I'm a West Virginian and an American. We
have a vested interest in conditions in our country and the welfare
of its citizens. Apparently you haven't seen the terrible damage
done to thousands of towns across this land by illegals, their unfair
cheap labor, their drugs and crime, their leaching onto our social
service system, and on and on. Also, perhaps they didn't teach
you that your tax dollars should be going to help Americans first,
not taking care of Mexico or Guatamala's problems for them.
Personally, I wish they would boat the whole lot of illicit aliens
out of the country tomorrow. But, if we have to have any around,
it would be nice if we could move them in right next door to the
ignorants who want to stick up for them, then see how they feel
about it.
Ohhh, yeah that is pretty much my opinion. I don't view it as much of a problem, especially in West Virginia. Look around.... ALL WHITE PEOPLE.... This hysteria over immigrants just creates a playground for racism and situations of unethical and unequal treatment. I think as a country we definitely have bigger problems that we should be dealing with. Also, we should be thankful for those immigrants.
I'm not sure how many of you know about the fertility replacement rate of 2.1 babies per woman. But comparatively the United States would be just as screwed at most of Europe and Japan whose rates are below 2.1. That means that there are fewer children to care for the elderly or take the jobs left vacant from retirees, and pay income taxes to run government services in the ever graying nations. Non-Hispanic white women are having the fewest babies, under the 2.1 replacement rate. If it wasn't for the (comparatively) high fertility rates of Hispanic women... the United States population would be "graying" at a much faster rate, and would within time start shrinking and be faced with an economic catastrophe. So yeah, not saying we should just open the gate and slap a "proud to be American" bumper sticker on their @ss but immigrants do have a positive effect on this country, while..... wars, lack of healthcare, personal rights, and environmental degradation do not.
Racism off the table, you know I'm not, I know you're not. Agreed it's wrong.
-Illegal immigration fosters unethical treatment because labor standards are diminished or absent. Unfair competition lowers everyones standard of living, it's just hard to quantify until it touches your life personally.
- Well aware of birth rates, you are absolutely correct. Anyone wishing to correct that trend can take a sobering look at how motherhood has become an exercise in voluntary poverty in America. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Stay at home moms are lazy divas. Divorced moms are welfare queens sucking the life blood out of everyone. Working moms are selfish materialists throwing their children under a bus. Are mothers anything more than a cuss word in the cultural climate we have now?
-Legal immigrants could just as well be reflecting those + statistics, and the ILLEGAL part is the issue. Had these people come through the front door it would be an entirely different matter. CT's point of them inherently having no respect for our country is undeniable. These sorts of people are not destined to be responsible citizens. Not about race, creed, color, gender, personal wealth, social strata- strictly about character, and the duties required of citizenship.
-Legal immigrants... everyone paying into the system= no problem. Illegal immigrants failing to pay into the system means those of us who are honest carry not only our own weight, but theirs as well. Do you find it fair having to pay an uninsured motorist fee in your insurance policy? They need to be held responsible for themselves or leave.
-I've got to sound like a pill to you but listen to your fiscal conservative auntie. Nothing is possible if it can't be paid for, and that's something progressives have done well to learn from conservatives. Now their voice makes sense to more people.
I'll give you a scenario of unlimited charity. The mathematic reality of your family if mom and dad adopted 10 foreign nationals today would mean everyone must sacrifice for the greater good of the family. Cody can't go to college, and great grandma can't afford her medicine anymore. Mom and Dad can't ever retire, you'll be tasked babysitting, as will they, in between multiple jobs for the next 21 years (assuming a time limit, it could be limitless, they could adopt more the day after tomorrow, but you don't get a vote.).
Plans with Jake? Bye Jake, I'm not allowed to have a life. Perhaps you could occasionally attend night school and get a degree in 20yrs if your brilliant mind doesn't get saturated completely by french fry grease. THAT is not the fate I want for the best and brightest America has to offer. This isn't realistic example you think? OK, they might not literally be in your home, but when taxes have to be raised to such insane levels to compensate for illegals the same way as if they were living in your home, that math becomes evident.
Nope, not building a shanty shack in my backyard for them to live under the radar while they undercut my next door neighbors livelihood, he can't make his mortgage payment, and diminish everyones property value because now we're all assigned risk. Nope, not footing the bill for those who aren't paying their way. Nope, not letting the middle class bear the brunt of all of it anymore. The only benefactors of illegal immigration are ubber wealthy, who then leverage cheap labor against middle class lowering their wages, who in turn carry inordinate taxation for the benefit of both ubber wealthy and poverty wages. That one two punch beating on middle class from neo con fiscal policy is still in effect with liberals, and you need to see that clearly. Just think about it is all I ask.
Using your previous post as a premise leaves a conclusion...
That the illegal hordes are part of a plan orchestrated to change the economic demography of this country....to change out the middle class for a class mired in poverty...leaving the ubber rich who control and the serfs who will not.
The poor are needed to be poor..if they were not, we would have corrected our own problem with education and jobs and let them benefit from personal 'wealth creation and escape.
Racism off the table, you know I'm not, I know you're not. Agreed it's wrong.
-Illegal immigration fosters unethical treatment because labor standards are diminished or absent. Unfair competition lowers everyones standard of living, it's just hard to quantify until it touches your life personally.
- Well aware of birth rates, you are absolutely correct. Anyone wishing to correct that trend can take a sobering look at how motherhood has become an exercise in voluntary poverty in America. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Stay at home moms are lazy divas. Divorced moms are welfare queens sucking the life blood out of everyone. Working moms are selfish materialists throwing their children under a bus. Are mothers anything more than a cuss word in the cultural climate we have now?
-Legal immigrants could just as well be reflecting those + statistics, and the ILLEGAL part is the issue. Had these people come through the front door it would be an entirely different matter. CT's point of them inherently having no respect for our country is undeniable. These sorts of people are not destined to be responsible citizens. Not about race, creed, color, gender, personal wealth, social strata- strictly about character, and the duties required of citizenship.
-Legal immigrants... everyone paying into the system= no problem. Illegal immigrants failing to pay into the system means those of us who are honest carry not only our own weight, but theirs as well. Do you find it fair having to pay an uninsured motorist fee in your insurance policy? They need to be held responsible for themselves or leave.
-I've got to sound like a pill to you but listen to your fiscal conservative auntie. Nothing is possible if it can't be paid for, and that's something progressives have done well to learn from conservatives. Now their voice makes sense to more people.
I'll give you a scenario of unlimited charity. The mathematic reality of your family if mom and dad adopted 10 foreign nationals today would mean everyone must sacrifice for the greater good of the family. Cody can't go to college, and great grandma can't afford her medicine anymore. Mom and Dad can't ever retire, you'll be tasked babysitting, as will they, in between multiple jobs for the next 21 years (assuming a time limit, it could be limitless, they could adopt more the day after tomorrow, but you don't get a vote.).
Plans with Jake? Bye Jake, I'm not allowed to have a life. Perhaps you could occasionally attend night school and get a degree in 20yrs if your brilliant mind doesn't get saturated completely by french fry grease. THAT is not the fate I want for the best and brightest America has to offer. This isn't realistic example you think? OK, they might not literally be in your home, but when taxes have to be raised to such insane levels to compensate for illegals the same way as if they were living in your home, that math becomes evident.
Nope, not building a shanty shack in my backyard for them to live under the radar while they undercut my next door neighbors livelihood, he can't make his mortgage payment, and diminish everyones property value because now we're all assigned risk. Nope, not footing the bill for those who aren't paying their way. Nope, not letting the middle class bear the brunt of all of it anymore. The only benefactors of illegal immigration are ubber wealthy, who then leverage cheap labor against middle class lowering their wages, who in turn carry inordinate taxation for the benefit of both ubber wealthy and poverty wages. That one two punch beating on middle class from neo con fiscal policy is still in effect with liberals, and you need to see that clearly. Just think about it is all I ask.
I see your point... and coming from an upper middle class family and being an only child... a domineering one at that. That scenario you mentioned definitely wouldn't fly. I agree about the taxes, I hate them... I'm fairly fiscally conservative when it comes to those. I just have a problem with some people not wanting to pay their fair share. Also though our military budget is 600 billion dollars a year... why does no one protest that though?! Does that figure not seem just slightly ridiculous to anyone??? I also think about the conditions these people face in their home countries... many of them have no choice. They'll risk death because if they stay there they'll die anyway. Starvation, violence, oppression, etc. Nearly all of them are coming here for a better life for themselves and their families. Most are not involved in drugs, and if anyone considers pot a drug you need to come into the 21st century.
I also agree with your point about women being damned if they do, and damned if they dont. Which could be an entirely whole other sociological conversation.
I see your point... and coming from an upper middle class family and being an only child... a domineering one at that. That scenario you mentioned definitely wouldn't fly. I agree about the taxes, I hate them... I'm fairly fiscally conservative when it comes to those. I just have a problem with some people not wanting to pay their fair share. Also though our military budget is 600 billion dollars a year... why does no one protest that though?! Does that figure not seem just slightly ridiculous to anyone??? I also think about the conditions these people face in their home countries... many of them have no choice. They'll risk death because if they stay there they'll die anyway. Starvation, violence, oppression, etc. Nearly all of them are coming here for a better life for themselves and their families. Most are not involved in drugs, and if anyone considers pot a drug you need to come into the 21st century.
I also agree with your point about women being damned if they do, and damned if they dont. Which could be an entirely whole other sociological conversation.
LOL it's not just about selfishness interests first, it's pragmatism. There is no shortage of human suffering time immemorial. We do what we can. Check out the haiti threads in poli forum. Dredged up lots of sorrowful memories for me, but am I callous? No.
The last round of aid they planted trees that solved 5 problems with one action. It would produce fruit to feed their children far into the future. It would reforrest the land and prevent flooding/ mudslides perpetuating devastation. It would offset anyones need to engage the drug trade to make a living. It softened the strained relations with domincan republic, because when each has their needs met, they don't compete for meager resources. This was an intelligent use of funds, a respectful version of charity, that enables people to help themselves. Dragging the residents of these two sovereigns to USA to school them on 'how it's dun son'-- read up on history of how americans/ church missionaries delivered their heavy handed version of economic improvement and education to the native american population. The devil was in the details. Our arrogance was in the way. Our arrogance of delivering democracy at the barrel of a gun in Iraq... we still did not learn the lessons of past mistakes.
Protesting 600 million is irrational if you haven't addressed the issue of foreign policy root cause of budget. On this subject I suggest you listen to Hinton, because my military experience corroborates his story 100%. Sure, everyone in CG would love a billet at a loran station in Italy, but what the heck are we doing in Italy? Guam. Germany. The list goes on. We're detouring off thread tho, so lets get back on track.
America affords latitude for political asylum, for humanitarian endeavors, and for legal immigration. I don't hear any side complaining or trying to erase those policies. Illegals need to be dealt with, and the policy of not dealing (something libs appear to endorse) is bad for everyone. So libs, how do we fix this?
DK as for lower birth rates for white families... I see this less as conspiracy and more the failure in responsibility as citizens to uphold each others rights in earnest. The blame is our own. Gender wars= childish arguments where everyone loses. Right vs left= childish arguments, resources squandered. Green vs industrial interest= childish arguments, resources squandered. Men and women should be more respectful of one another and defend each others rights, that's when a family is healthy and strong. I defend white males often, and still the accusations of feminazi are thrown at me for failure to agree with every word out their mouths. I do what I can, but men like rush limberger are beyond redemption. Young white boys referring to women as ho's-- care to diagnose and treat this lad? He needs something alright.
I see your point... and coming from an upper middle class family and being an only child... a domineering one at that. That scenario you mentioned definitely wouldn't fly. I agree about the taxes, I hate them... I'm fairly fiscally conservative when it comes to those. I just have a problem with some people not wanting to pay their fair share. Also though our military budget is 600 billion dollars a year... why does no one protest that though?! Does that figure not seem just slightly ridiculous to anyone??? I also think about the conditions these people face in their home countries... many of them have no choice. They'll risk death because if they stay there they'll die anyway. Starvation, violence, oppression, etc. Nearly all of them are coming here for a better life for themselves and their families. Most are not involved in drugs, and if anyone considers pot a drug you need to come into the 21st century.
I also agree with your point about women being damned if they do, and damned if they dont. Which could be an entirely whole other sociological conversation.
You remind me of myself at college age. After a lifetime of experience, I side more with Harborlady now. I don't have the answers, just more data to process. But the fact that you even care about these issues is important. There is some truth in every point of view, and that keeps the engine running. Maybe there's hope for the future.
My biggest concern right now is more with the rampant lawless reign of terror down on our border. Drug gangs are seizing power from local governments by use of terror and intimidation. They are popular with young people and becoming quite powerful. We hear very little of it here, as though it were some remote, far away issue. It's closer than we think, i'm sure. Let's just hope that a powerful, and smart, leader doesn't rise up out of that mess. Could we handle a Saddam or Hitler right in our own back yard? We are so vulnerable to drugs, what's to stop him? Just say no??.........
Most illegals don't come here with a criminal intent, but refusing the gangs would mean losing a family member back home.
How do we handle these issues without being racist or unjust? I don't know, that's for you younger people to figure out.... Good luck.
The elitists who run our country (both parties), and to a large extent our state governments, have little connection to the rest of us and don't
really relate to our problems. Many of them have never had to
get their hands dirty or even work at a real job.
They can banter back and forth about motives, but the feel good left
wing group and the cheap labor right wing group are in bed together on
this issue. They are also largely insulated from the consequences of it. In fact, they benefit from the cheap labor at the expense of the rest of us and, since they pay no taxes due to their "deductions", aren't affected that much from the demise of our middle class or the incredible tax and social burdens that result from their policies.
Racism off the table, you know I'm not, I know you're not. Agreed it's wrong.
-Illegal immigration fosters unethical treatment because labor standards are diminished or absent. Unfair competition lowers everyones standard of living, it's just hard to quantify until it touches your life personally.
- Well aware of birth rates, you are absolutely correct. Anyone wishing to correct that trend can take a sobering look at how motherhood has become an exercise in voluntary poverty in America. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Stay at home moms are lazy divas. Divorced moms are welfare queens sucking the life blood out of everyone. Working moms are selfish materialists throwing their children under a bus. Are mothers anything more than a cuss word in the cultural climate we have now?
-Legal immigrants could just as well be reflecting those + statistics, and the ILLEGAL part is the issue. Had these people come through the front door it would be an entirely different matter. CT's point of them inherently having no respect for our country is undeniable. These sorts of people are not destined to be responsible citizens. Not about race, creed, color, gender, personal wealth, social strata- strictly about character, and the duties required of citizenship.
-Legal immigrants... everyone paying into the system= no problem. Illegal immigrants failing to pay into the system means those of us who are honest carry not only our own weight, but theirs as well. Do you find it fair having to pay an uninsured motorist fee in your insurance policy? They need to be held responsible for themselves or leave.
-I've got to sound like a pill to you but listen to your fiscal conservative auntie. Nothing is possible if it can't be paid for, and that's something progressives have done well to learn from conservatives. Now their voice makes sense to more people.
I'll give you a scenario of unlimited charity. The mathematic reality of your family if mom and dad adopted 10 foreign nationals today would mean everyone must sacrifice for the greater good of the family. Cody can't go to college, and great grandma can't afford her medicine anymore. Mom and Dad can't ever retire, you'll be tasked babysitting, as will they, in between multiple jobs for the next 21 years (assuming a time limit, it could be limitless, they could adopt more the day after tomorrow, but you don't get a vote.).
Plans with Jake? Bye Jake, I'm not allowed to have a life. Perhaps you could occasionally attend night school and get a degree in 20yrs if your brilliant mind doesn't get saturated completely by french fry grease. THAT is not the fate I want for the best and brightest America has to offer. This isn't realistic example you think? OK, they might not literally be in your home, but when taxes have to be raised to such insane levels to compensate for illegals the same way as if they were living in your home, that math becomes evident.
Nope, not building a shanty shack in my backyard for them to live under the radar while they undercut my next door neighbors livelihood, he can't make his mortgage payment, and diminish everyones property value because now we're all assigned risk. Nope, not footing the bill for those who aren't paying their way. Nope, not letting the middle class bear the brunt of all of it anymore. The only benefactors of illegal immigration are ubber wealthy, who then leverage cheap labor against middle class lowering their wages, who in turn carry inordinate taxation for the benefit of both ubber wealthy and poverty wages. That one two punch beating on middle class from neo con fiscal policy is still in effect with liberals, and you need to see that clearly. Just think about it is all I ask.
I LIKE a lot of what you to say...your main points are very strong, very interesting...so many things to like about it.
I'm kind of still trying to figure out WV political thinking myself..
One, I gotta say, there are a lot of illegals in the U.S. Tons. However, I am unsure how much they collectively take from us. I mean, as an American (who is currently living abroad), but back when I was living in the States...it was pretty difficult finding a job that gave health insurance. So, I haven't went to the doctor in 20 years in the U.S. - I have abroad though, because it's a small fraction of the cost.
So, I wonder, illegals certainly aren't getting health insurance...what are they getting? Seems to me they just get low paying jobs and that's about it....they wouldn't qualify for anything else.
Am I wrong about this this? (I'm ONLY speaking from a financial perspective, not a social ills/social problems one).
If anything, it is all of the Section 8 vouchers and everything else that more Americans have a preference for...as well as all of the social giveaway programs...a whole heap of problems there. None of the illegals would get any of this...they seem to be the only ones working when you are in cities like NYC and such and see a person still manning the store.
The elitists who run our country (both parties), and to a large extent our state governments, have little connection to the rest of us and don't
really relate to our problems.
That's the biggest one I see.
In their eyes, we are all either RAKING IT in and need help with our huge financial portfolios (i.e. Republican thinking)...or they think we need to give away houses and free everything to people who prefer not to work (i.e. Democratic thinking).
There isn't any party with middle class interests...and what about just average people who just know we all have to work, but don't have huge corporate accounts.
---
All that being said, I'm still thinking about harborlady's comments about mothers who are pretty much DOOMED no matter what.
We can't really go back to the 1950s either where there was 1-income earner..these days its pretty much required there are two income earners. Kind of in a tough spot...
Democrats TRY to help...but really their interests are with the poverty stricken among our urban areas...
---
Actually I've been having this thinking that our cities need to be restructured differently...make it where small businesses can thrive...things aren't zoned to death...people don't have to purchase 2 cars to commute to jobs far from their houses. I've been thinking major small business encouragement needs to happen...and people can have businesses anywhere they want, the first floor of their house, and live upstairs if they wanted. They should be able to open up a key kiosk if they want...instead so many regulations and restrictions and licenses...a person can't really do anything to make a living anymore, it seems to me.
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